May 4th, 2024 - Is Life Poorly Designed?

Join our "Designed from Reason" discussion as we dissect common "bad design" arguments, revealing how a deeper understanding of biology often uncovers astonishing levels of sophistication and purpose. We'll explore concepts like homeostasis, irreducible complexity, and systems engineering to demonstrate that even the most puzzling aspects of life may have ingenious solutions we haven't yet fully grasped.

Whether you're a curious science enthusiast or someone wrestling with questions of faith and design, this podcast offers a thought-provoking journey into the heart of biological complexity. Prepare to have your assumptions challenged and your appreciation for the wonders of life renewed.

April 6th, 2024 - Design in the Human Body

Is the human body a marvel of chance, or a masterpiece of design? Our podcast investigates compelling biological systems and the scientific arguments suggesting an intelligent origin. Prepare to be amazed and challenged.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;02;26

Speaker 1

You could go. And then she can head.

00;00;02;29 - 00;00;03;23

Speaker 2

I have to be.

00;00;03;24 - 00;00;05;23

Speaker 1

There like someone I'm going to.

00;00;05;23 - 00;00;10;28

Speaker 2

Watch and see for themselves to bed. So, like, right here for the day are very dark, right?

00;00;11;00 - 00;00;14;28

Speaker 1

Like you said, it was.

00;00;15;00 - 00;00;19;29

Speaker 1

If you come in to live like this. Okay. This is for a few thousand dollar bill.

00;00;20;01 - 00;00;23;25

Speaker 3

And they're like, nope, we did the right thing. Appeal tonight.

00;00;23;27 - 00;00;45;14

Speaker 4

All right. We, pray, and we'll get started. I just want to thank you for this morning. You've given us, it's a beautiful spring morning. And just pray that you bless our conversation and that we would honor you and just, grow our an understanding of your grand design within our bodies, father. And, I pray these things in your name.

00;00;45;14 - 00;00;46;10

Speaker 4

Amen.

00;00;46;12 - 00;00;49;17

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;00;49;19 - 00;01;13;18

Speaker 4

All right. This month, we're building on our continuous theme here. And, we're going to be focusing on the human body. so evidences for design within the human body. And there's a lot to talk about. So we're only going to scratch the surface on it. there is a great book. I'm actually still reading it, but it's your designed body.

00;01;13;21 - 00;01;40;20

Speaker 4

it's highly detailed. And, it talks about how. So? It's written by a medical doctor and a systems engineer, and they collaborated to talk about how the body has various things that are very similar to system engineering and things that engineers use regularly to solve problems. and we see these same kind of patterns all throughout the body.

00;01;40;22 - 00;01;54;09

Speaker 4

But, you know, before we get started, maybe, I'll open it up a little bit and see what you guys like. What do you know about the human body? And, like, what fascinates you by the human body? What?

00;01;54;12 - 00;01;57;29

Speaker 1

Its gross, you know, that's fair.

00;01;58;06 - 00;01;59;27

Speaker 4

That is fair.

00;01;59;29 - 00;02;01;01

Speaker 3

I work in a hospital.

00;02;01;01 - 00;02;02;25

Speaker 1

That's gross.

00;02;02;27 - 00;02;09;04

Speaker 4

Yeah. You have a special perspective that.

00;02;09;07 - 00;02;10;01

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;02;10;03 - 00;02;13;04

Speaker 4

Yeah. You know, that's probably the default, you know?

00;02;13;07 - 00;02;20;29

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah. There's smells in there that you didn't know there.

00;02;21;01 - 00;02;22;20

Speaker 1

It's funny.

00;02;22;22 - 00;02;56;09

Speaker 2

I think the fact that, that there's. So I mean, survival, right. We all have one. We all have body and it's there to maintain and sustain itself. And how so much of that is very delicate. And yet it functions with very little of our consciousness involved. Like, we don't need to think about breathing, except we are all male, blinking all of that.

00;02;56;15 - 00;03;29;26

Speaker 2

We have to make sure that we put water in it, food in it, probably move it around every now and again, maintain somewhat of proper hygiene, and the rest is completely automated. and you would think with something so complex, there would be far more, purposeful usage of it. Like, I think about a car, I think about, okay, this is where my brain just goes, mom, there's so many things that we function with today in our daily lives that are extremely complex, and we have to take really good care of them.

00;03;29;28 - 00;03;46;27

Speaker 2

Commissioner. People that are like mechanical engineers, taking care of, like, cars and other things. There's just so much that you have to do to maintain something so complex. And yet our bodies do it by, by themselves. In a sense. I think that's what fascinates me.

00;03;46;29 - 00;04;01;17

Speaker 3

I don't know if there's anything else that doesn't that like everything I like, even in the areas that we've tried to make crossovers of, like, let's make a manmade thing with biological aspects. Yeah, even those break down.

00;04;01;17 - 00;04;04;13

Speaker 2

Yeah. So fast.

00;04;04;15 - 00;04;27;06

Speaker 3

we just, like, haven't gotten past that. Or we can make that. It almost seems sort of like a form of, like, perpetual motion. If we were able to really make that crossover of making machines, so to speak, that can, you know, you put in like some food and water and they fix themselves in a meaningful like way that does work.

00;04;27;08 - 00;04;28;26

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

00;04;28;28 - 00;04;32;02

Speaker 3

Everything requires our intervention to keep it function.

00;04;32;07 - 00;04;32;27

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00;04;32;29 - 00;04;41;12

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point. It makes me think of like once if you had to feed your phone, that'd be weird. But, you know, if it.

00;04;41;15 - 00;04;45;20

Speaker 3

You know, it's like you're under like, the door in. Put it in. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

00;04;45;20 - 00;04;47;06

Speaker 1

You know, and.

00;04;47;08 - 00;04;57;21

Speaker 2

Remember, the better. Okay. Better off ten. Yeah. Remember they create a machine that runs the building and like it, it like got stressed and had heartburn. And so like.

00;04;57;24 - 00;04;59;29

Speaker 1

Acid was like the walls and they.

00;04;59;29 - 00;05;03;13

Speaker 2

Were like, oh no, this is gonna be like oh my gosh. Yes.

00;05;03;16 - 00;05;05;11

Speaker 4

Yeah I forgot about that.

00;05;05;13 - 00;05;07;01

Speaker 2

Now I remembered.

00;05;07;04 - 00;05;32;16

Speaker 4

Yeah. It's true. No. Like our highest technology is nowhere close to being able to heal itself. Like we have some like metamaterials that can sort of self-heal, you know, or like, metals that when you heat them, they'll come back to their original shape. But, you know, nothing like the human body where, you know, we scratch ourselves or, whatnot.

00;05;32;16 - 00;05;35;16

Speaker 4

And it just heals over time. And it's like it never happened.

00;05;35;19 - 00;06;06;26

Speaker 2

But it's it it's also interesting, though, that, I think like, transplants, skin grafting, things like that. You would think, like, if you take, if you take a car and a part of that car breaks down, like the muffler, let's say the muffler gets worn. It you could, in theory, get a muffler from another car and, like, finagle it a little bit to make it fit, and it would probably function okay.

00;06;06;26 - 00;06;33;14

Speaker 2

I'm not a mechanic. So if you are and you're like, no, Josiah, that's not true. You get what I'm saying? But, but you see, in the medical world that when somebody gets a new heart that they've already had and it's, it's the same functioning thing, there's rejection meds, you would think that replacing one functional, one not functioning part with a functioning part, that is the exact same thing wouldn't be so highly rejected.

00;06;33;14 - 00;06;57;21

Speaker 2

And yet it is because yeah, that tissue is what it needs. But it wasn't the same design tissue for that specific individual. And so there's something there which I'm sure a doctor could say. Yep. It's these things, white blood cells that, that that person's body is saying that's not mine. We can't use it, but I'll die if we don't have it.

00;06;57;21 - 00;06;59;27

Speaker 2

And yet it so rejects it.

00;07;00;02 - 00;07;01;07

Speaker 4

Yeah.

00;07;01;10 - 00;07;08;10

Speaker 5

Well, it's kind of like women who are pregnant and they're RH negative. Yep. Right. And their own body. Yep. Attacks the baby. Yep.

00;07;08;13 - 00;07;09;03

Speaker 1

Same kind of thing.

00;07;09;06 - 00;07;13;11

Speaker 2

I was talking about that. That's why there's blood tests early and then like 1920s before people got married.

00;07;13;18 - 00;07;14;05

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;07;14;07 - 00;07;20;22

Speaker 2

To determine if you have a like if you're RH negative, RH positive and try to have a kid, it could be dangerous plus syphilis.

00;07;20;24 - 00;07;24;24

Speaker 1

But that's another thing.

00;07;24;24 - 00;07;42;29

Speaker 4

is there any systems of the body that stand out to you as, like, super, well designed or like that you may have heard of as, like, hey, that's something that's really difficult to explain through evolutionary terms.

00;07;43;02 - 00;07;45;19

Speaker 5

One of my difficult to explain. But your brain is pretty cool.

00;07;45;26 - 00;07;46;18

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00;07;46;20 - 00;08;02;19

Speaker 5

Like you can give someone a fake limb, and neuroplasticity kind of takes over and just makes it your own. you know, you figure out how to use it in your if you break something in your body that you, your body can fix or smart enough to figure out how to make things to fix our own body.

00;08;02;19 - 00;08;03;12

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;08;03;14 - 00;08;33;25

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, the brain is highly complex. I mean, I think I put it in the email out that, like, yeah, it was a quote, to remember who I think it was. Arthur C Clarke. Yep. That said, you know, the the 3 pound mass in our heads is one of the most organized in self structure, pieces of matter in the universe that we know about.

00;08;33;28 - 00;08;58;28

Speaker 4

and that's true. Like, our brains are our, you know, we have some basic understanding on how they function with neurons firing and stuff like that, but, like deeper levels of, like, how consciousness works or even how, like various parts of the brain interact with each other. Like even like how our memories are stored is still an area of resource research.

00;08;59;00 - 00;09;24;12

Speaker 4

You know, it's not like a computer, system where it's like, oh, there's the hard drive that stores the data, there's the Ram that accesses it. it's it's, you know, there's obviously parts to it, but how those parts interact to form our the processing is pretty incredible and not fully understood.

00;09;24;15 - 00;09;25;05

Speaker 1

Simians, you.

00;09;25;05 - 00;09;28;16

Speaker 5

Know, crazy things like dissociative identity.

00;09;28;19 - 00;09;29;06

Speaker 1

Like.

00;09;29;08 - 00;09;31;08

Speaker 4

Dreams. Dream. Yeah.

00;09;31;10 - 00;09;32;23

Speaker 5

That's interesting.

00;09;32;25 - 00;09;36;10

Speaker 4

Yeah. Yeah.

00;09;36;12 - 00;10;11;11

Speaker 2

Right. I immune system was amazing because it's able to take in information like vaccines or when you get ill and like in it you are introducing information to your body and your immune system is working through that in order to create what it needs to be a defense mechanism for that thing in the future. You know, like like cold and flu.

00;10;11;13 - 00;10;33;14

Speaker 2

evolve. Like every year it becomes something new. not that the old ones die out, but like, that's what viruses do. They're really good at it. Bacteria is really good at that. The virus, more viruses and bacteria very well. But, but when you like, you're taking your body and you're introducing more information into it and it's taking that instead of rejecting it, making you sick, which can happen.

00;10;33;14 - 00;10;47;21

Speaker 2

Side effects are real. but for the majority, you take it in in your body decodes like figures out how to use it efficiently, and then uses it for protection against something it's never experienced before.

00;10;47;23 - 00;11;26;29

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah. That's that. The immune system. If you haven't dove into that we'll talk about a little bit more. if we have time because it is a fascinating one. but the immune system is highly complex and has a lot of pieces to it, and it's quite incredible in its engineering. so I think we've mentioned this term before in another class, but, there's a term called homeostasis and homeostasis is this idea that the human body has to maintain a stable internal environment despite external and internal changes.

00;11;27;01 - 00;11;55;07

Speaker 4

It's essentially our built in system for keeping things balanced. So like we. Have various external conditions that have to be managed. So let's think a simple one. or nothing that actually simple. But let's take us, an easy example of like temperature, right? Like, you know, we live in Iowa. It's guitar. It gets cold. and our bodies have to keep a certain balance.

00;11;55;07 - 00;12;25;04

Speaker 4

Right? We need to be at, 98.6 degrees. Good. Give or take, you know, and in our body is constantly trying to keep at that temperature despite it being -20 degrees outside or 100 degrees outside. And there are multiple systems involved in regulating our temperature. so we need a system to help cool us down or too hot and to warm us up when we're too cold.

00;12;25;06 - 00;12;41;19

Speaker 4

And it's not just one. There's multiple strategies that the body uses as things get more and more extreme. in if if any of those fail, you know, death is a consequence or a bad time at the very least.

00;12;41;21 - 00;12;42;26

Speaker 2

permanent damage.

00;12;42;29 - 00;13;13;12

Speaker 4

Or permanent damage. Yeah. And you think about that, that's an that is an engineering problem that we face with our machines. You know, I think about, you know, the International Space Station, it's up in space. It's has to have a homeostasis environment so that it can support the astronauts that are on there. And it needs to make sure that the, the, the space station stays at the right temperature so that the astronauts don't overheat.

00;13;13;14 - 00;13;37;00

Speaker 4

and, yeah, surprisingly, this is kind of maybe a side note, but like most people think that you would, like, freeze, before, you would, you know, if the space station went offline, you would think that astronauts with fridges could space is cold, but they would actually probably overheat. it's because that space, while it's cold, it's a vacuum.

00;13;37;03 - 00;13;59;20

Speaker 4

And you think about how your, fancy Yeti mug keeps things hot or cold. It had, you know, vacuum is a perfect insulation. There's not a lot of material there to transfer the heat. So what happens is, you know, a spacesuit or a space station or a spaceship that heat that the human body makes doesn't radiate out fast enough.

00;13;59;25 - 00;14;30;13

Speaker 4

So you end up with a heat problem, not a cooling problem. I know for you today, I guess, but, yeah, like, they're challenging problems. And if it's an engineering thing, you need certain components. And you see this for a lot of systems, right? You need a way to, since what's happening, you need sensors. So your body needs sensors to understand what temperature it.

00;14;30;15 - 00;14;48;08

Speaker 4

and there are various sensors throughout the body that give it information so that it can then make changes. And then those changes go into effect. And let's say it's too cold outside, and your body needs a warm up. So it'll increase your metabolism rate, which will make you warmer.

00;14;48;10 - 00;14;49;09

Speaker 2

Or you shiver.

00;14;49;12 - 00;15;19;10

Speaker 4

Or you shiver. and or both. Probably. so that system kicks on. Well, let's say you then go sit next to a fire. There needs to be, another system. Say, hey, we're warming up. We need to cancel that like cold, system that we turned on. And we need to, you know, we need to, you know, chill that out, and now maybe even go to, like, cooling down or something like that.

00;15;19;13 - 00;15;41;11

Speaker 4

and so you end up with these feedback systems. So feedback system is like, a big idea in engineering, where like you, you go to correct, you like your home thermostat is a great example of this. The thermostat tries to keep it at the, at the temperature you set, so it kicks on the heat and it goes up, and then it gets too far.

00;15;41;11 - 00;15;56;24

Speaker 4

So it turns off the heating and starts going back down. And then it kicks back on to go back up like your body does the same thing. It's this feedback mechanism of like knowing when to turn on the right systems and then when to turn them off so that you get into this very narrow range of compatibility.

00;15;56;27 - 00;16;03;02

Speaker 2

And furnaces have to get checked off every month so they don't break down in their bodies, just do it till we die. Yeah. Potentially. Or 90.

00;16;03;05 - 00;16;27;04

Speaker 4

Yeah. If the sensor goes wrong on your thermostat, then you're going to have trouble because it's going to not know what actual temperature it is and it'll stay on or stay off or whatever it may be. and like temperature is just one of hundreds of factors that your body has to calibrate within a fine, zone. You think about.

00;16;27;07 - 00;16;34;01

Speaker 4

well, maybe I'll throw it on to the question. What other systems can you think about that your body has to control?

00;16;34;03 - 00;16;41;07

Speaker 1

Heat waste management. And, you know, loosely.

00;16;41;09 - 00;16;45;24

Speaker 4

Yeah, I guess in production. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one.

00;16;45;27 - 00;16;47;20

Speaker 5

oxygen saturation in your blood.

00;16;47;27 - 00;16;55;08

Speaker 4

That's another great. Yeah, it's another great one. Pitch balance. Yeah. Blood sugar, blood sugar balance.

00;16;55;09 - 00;16;56;16

Speaker 1

Hormones. Hormones.

00;16;56;16 - 00;17;24;29

Speaker 4

Yeah. All of these things are all have to be within certain ranges. and when they're not, you have since, you have problems, right? Like, that's really what a doctor is doing. It's like, okay, their blood pressure is too high. Why is the body not correcting for that or what is causing that? You know, and blood pressure is controlled by two major factors.

00;17;24;29 - 00;17;28;00

Speaker 4

One is your cardiac.

00;17;28;02 - 00;17;29;07

Speaker 1

pretty intense game system.

00;17;29;13 - 00;17;52;21

Speaker 4

Yeah. Your cardiac, cardiovascular system. But, like, how fast your heart is beating and how much blood is pumping, and then also the resistance of your, veins until, like, there's, there's friction in your brain, in your veins. And, you know, those two things cause can cause your blood pressure to on unbalance. And you know what? What is it?

00;17;52;27 - 00;18;06;16

Speaker 4

Which one is it in? And they have to kind of make a judgment there, you know, is it like your veins are full of plaque, so like, it's hard to pump through. or or are you stressed. You that anything.

00;18;06;16 - 00;18;07;24

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

00;18;08;01 - 00;18;09;08

Speaker 3

Correct behavior. Just taking this.

00;18;09;08 - 00;18;32;22

Speaker 4

Film. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of what it comes down to. so yeah. Like that's that's what, that's the role of doctors quite, quite often. and, and all of these mechanisms have this, this, sweet zone, this Goldilocks zone that you need to be in. And the body has to, have the feedback mechanisms to keep it in there.

00;18;32;24 - 00;18;50;10

Speaker 4

And okay, let's think about this from a, evolutionary standpoint. What what makes that difficult to explain evolutionary wise? Like how do you like why would this be something that's hard to explain?

00;18;50;12 - 00;19;26;29

Speaker 2

I mean, it's it's that typical thing where, like like what you said, Josh, which is the acid in your stomach, let's say, illusion worked all the way up into, creature of any kind that now has a stomach. And one day, as that stomach is evolving, that acid level is too high. It dissolves the whole creature. how does that creature then pass information along to say that acid was too high?

00;19;26;29 - 00;19;49;24

Speaker 2

Don't do it again. Yeah. on top of being able to that there's so many systems that if we all know it, like, you get up one morning and you sneeze incorrectly and your whole body shudders because you throw on your back out, which then messes with your, like, digestion and like waste management because it hurts to sit on the potty now or whatever.

00;19;49;25 - 00;20;17;21

Speaker 2

Like there's just so much that can just go wrong that for it to go right. Yeah. Like it's a numbers game. Yeah, it's a pure numbers game. If something is going to survive and that complexity is intense, how on earth did did it all work out? It doesn't. See, it just doesn't seem to be a thing that could feasibly happen a ton of times.

00;20;17;21 - 00;20;25;23

Speaker 2

Like so many times. there's too much failure involved that just ends it immediately.

00;20;25;26 - 00;20;27;03

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

00;20;27;05 - 00;20;29;28

Speaker 4

I think, yeah. You hit on a lot of.

00;20;30;01 - 00;20;31;11

Speaker 2

it was not very eloquent.

00;20;31;13 - 00;21;28;04

Speaker 4

No, but you hit on one of the main ideas, like there's a high number of dependencies, like within the system itself, there's subsystems. And then each system has dependencies on other systems. And you have something that's not, correct in any of those. And things fall apart, you know that. And we see that even today with illnesses that throw off a system and then like, that's it, you know, like that's that's all it takes, sort of like minor problems can cause, catastrophic failures and it takes a very finely balanced and precision crafted, machine for it to work that way, you know, like, that's why, you know, like our high technology world, it doesn't

00;21;28;04 - 00;21;39;04

Speaker 4

take much to mess up. a computer, you know, like, physically, like, if you drop it, or, you know, it.

00;21;39;04 - 00;21;39;18

Speaker 1

Gets wet.

00;21;39;20 - 00;22;01;14

Speaker 4

It gets wet, or like, there's a lot of conditions that, it can't handle. and it doesn't have a way to recover from that sort of kind of catastrophic. You think of the gears in a launch, you know, you barely bend a single tooth in one of those gears, and the thing seizes that it takes very little to, to make it off.

00;22;01;14 - 00;22;27;12

Speaker 4

So, like, all those pieces have to be there. And that gets back to the idea of irreducible complexity. Like it's it's just like the mouse trap. It needs every single one of those parts to work in function. And before it's effectively able to do its purpose. and our bodies are that times, a billion probably. we'll start talking about some of the specific systems in the body.

00;22;27;14 - 00;23;03;08

Speaker 4

one of the poster child for irreducible complexity is the human eye. And, it's said that we process about 80% of the information we process comes from our, our vision. so it's a pretty important, part of our existence. and, but the AI is very complex. It has many, many different specialized cells that are not used anywhere else in the body.

00;23;03;10 - 00;23;30;22

Speaker 4

you know, I think it's probably like 5 or 6 different types of cells. You got the wrong cells and the, cone cells and, the there's many more that have, various names, but, they, they all have to be in just the right way for vision to work. And you need, you need a lens to focus the vision onto the retina.

00;23;30;24 - 00;23;58;12

Speaker 4

and you need, the cornea to protect the eye. because it's a sensitive organ, you need muscles and, a structure to hold all these things together, so that you can look around, and even probably one of the hardest things explain is, so you have all these cells in the, in your retina that are photosensitive, sensitive.

00;23;58;17 - 00;24;21;23

Speaker 4

And when light, when a photon comes in and hits, like a rod or a cone that deforms that cell, which then causes an electrical signal to go to your brain, and you have, you know, millions of these cells in your eye that then your brain is getting all of this information, but your brain has to know what to do with that information, right?

00;24;21;23 - 00;24;45;19

Speaker 4

Because that, you know, that that's just raw information. That's just electrical signals. and if you don't have a, brain to interpret that signal, then it's not helping you at all. Right? And, you know, your brain does a lot for your vision, you know, so much so that, like, you know, like our vision is upside down and backwards and your brain corrects for that.

00;24;45;21 - 00;25;15;06

Speaker 4

You have a blind spot where your optical nerve and meets your, your retina. And like, you don't see that your brain like photoshops it. which is crazy that your brain does that. Like your, your brain is like a, you know, it's it's it's fascinating how much it corrects for, and like, you know, there's always those, like, little tricks that you can do to kind of exploit your eyes.

00;25;15;09 - 00;25;25;20

Speaker 4

biases. And, I can't remember any off the top of my head, but, you know, like, there's a way you can, like, hold your thumb down and, like, you'd like, disappears because your brain has no,

00;25;25;22 - 00;25;27;07

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

00;25;27;07 - 00;25;52;03

Speaker 4

Pulling your fingers out. Yeah. but, yeah, like like processing that information is is quite, taxing. and, like, it just is automatic. Like, you're not thinking about it, right? You're not like, oh, I need to run that process so I can interpret the visual information coming from my. I just happens.

00;25;52;05 - 00;25;58;04

Speaker 2

I mean, if it works well, if it's worse contacts or glasses, you know what happens when it does? Like.

00;25;58;06 - 00;26;00;29

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;26;01;02 - 00;26;38;12

Speaker 4

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like the, the, so evolutionary like, so since this is a poster child for, irreducible complexity, there's a lot of, ideas on how I could evolved. And I think we've touched on this in the past, but, you know, evolutionary, proponents will say, you know, it probably started out as a cluster of light sensitive cells, like, very simple.

00;26;38;18 - 00;26;40;27

Speaker 3

And those came from where.

00;26;40;29 - 00;26;41;13

Speaker 4

You know, they.

00;26;41;15 - 00;26;42;21

Speaker 1

They, they.

00;26;42;23 - 00;26;45;01

Speaker 4

They came from random mutations. Okay.

00;26;45;06 - 00;26;45;26

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;26;45;29 - 00;27;01;01

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a luck of the draw, you know, got some of. Yeah. Yeah. You got some light sensitive photons and that helps you you know, you can't really.

00;27;01;01 - 00;27;01;14

Speaker 1

See.

00;27;01;14 - 00;27;36;07

Speaker 4

Anything, but you can, like, sense that it's brighter over here than it is over here. And so, like, you know, if you're looking for if you're an organism that's looking to eat algae, you might want to go towards the light, because light is also what makes algae grow. So you're more likely to find food. And then, you know, as you evolve, you get some more changes and maybe you develop, like a cornea over that so that, you know, it protects it better because, you know, your relatives, went blind pretty quickly.

00;27;36;09 - 00;28;05;19

Speaker 4

but you have that cornea, so now you're more likely to reproduce, and then you get, more, you get a bunch of these, mutations and then specialized the cells. And, that's kind of how you do it in. You know, I think that sounds plausible, but is that like, that's a possibility on how it could happen, but what are the evidences for that to happen?

00;28;05;22 - 00;28;11;11

Speaker 2

And the little brain cell that grew. Little blueberry pancake.

00;28;11;13 - 00;28;12;14

Speaker 4

That's. Yeah.

00;28;12;16 - 00;28;14;10

Speaker 2

You're saying it did it, but.

00;28;14;11 - 00;28;15;21

Speaker 4

How revolutionary.

00;28;15;26 - 00;28;41;26

Speaker 2

Exactly. Because it's like, reading through that, I would be curious to know because I haven't seen much since we talked about it, last month, but, how did they determine that they were functioning and pulling in information and not like tumors? Yeah, right. They're like, look, eyeball. So it's like, okay, cool. Are you sure? Like, what are they doing?

00;28;41;29 - 00;28;57;26

Speaker 2

but yeah. What what was their. They would have to be information in there. It wasn't an evolutionary thing because they were like, look, brain cells, boom eyeballs. There was no time like hundreds and hundreds of years for that brain to figure it out, for those cells to determine. Now we need eyeball cells. Some sense.

00;28;57;26 - 00;28;58;23

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00;28;58;26 - 00;28;59;29

Speaker 2

They just were there.

00;29;00;04 - 00;29;18;12

Speaker 4

Yeah. And and I think that also I mean, I would even argue the, the fact that those, neurons that were basically incubated started growing eyes shows that the eyes in the brain are highly connected.

00;29;18;12 - 00;29;19;02

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;29;19;04 - 00;29;25;23

Speaker 4

And are fundamentally part of what brains need. Yeah. Like our brains.

00;29;25;25 - 00;29;26;07

Speaker 2

Need.

00;29;26;07 - 00;29;38;08

Speaker 4

To process and experience the reality we live in. And it's like fundamentally baked into the, what makes a brain brain is that it needs sensory input.

00;29;38;11 - 00;29;40;02

Speaker 2

Why wouldn't you know anything?

00;29;40;02 - 00;29;46;01

Speaker 3

I can't hear any of this without. That's like, you know, but why? What? You know, like, what's the what's right?

00;29;46;01 - 00;29;47;12

Speaker 4

What what drives it, right?

00;29;47;12 - 00;29;56;28

Speaker 3

I mean, like, its survival. I mean, it's survival. I don't know if too many people like, really like you really? Yeah.

00;29;57;05 - 00;30;21;24

Speaker 4

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a, I think how evolutionary science would have to answer that is there is no why. It's just random accidents that help you survive. Like the why is no longer irrelevant question like teleology, which is like like the purpose of things. like there is basically a useless area to go down because there is no purpose in anything.

00;30;21;26 - 00;30;45;14

Speaker 4

And like that's why you hear some scientists call us like fleshy robots because we're, that's that's basically how they see us. they see themselves. We're just accidental machines that are biological in nature that really have no purpose. except to, you know, survive is maybe the only right.

00;30;45;14 - 00;30;50;16

Speaker 3

But, yeah, I mean, that's still, like, still drives down to the that's still that's like, well, why don't.

00;30;50;16 - 00;30;51;07

Speaker 4

We want to still.

00;30;51;09 - 00;31;08;20

Speaker 3

Struggle? Why like, well survival is like okay, well that's still why it's on teleology. it is still relevant because you're still like whether you want to admit it or not, there's still a why it doesn't have to be necessarily transcendent, but it still exists.

00;31;08;23 - 00;31;31;08

Speaker 4

Yeah. And I think if you keep pushing, I think they would end up saying that, the why is because we exist. Like it's almost circular logic, you know, where like, like I, you know, I think this not only applies to life, but also just the universe in itself. Like we just happened to find ourselves in the series of events that led to our existence.

00;31;31;11 - 00;31;37;27

Speaker 4

And like, there's no why behind it. It's just we happened to be in. And that's why they lean towards like.

00;31;37;29 - 00;31;38;27

Speaker 3

even the weird, like.

00;31;38;28 - 00;31;44;27

Speaker 4

Multi universe stuff and like, they need a ton of chances. It's just like, oh, this is just.

00;31;45;00 - 00;31;45;18

Speaker 2

We're here because.

00;31;45;19 - 00;31;56;17

Speaker 4

You roll the dice enough times and things just happen the way they happened. Right. You know. And that's what you have to come down to in. Right. It's not a satisfying answer at all because like that goes against.

00;31;56;21 - 00;32;02;17

Speaker 3

Another chance and happened. And luck were actual forces in the universe that accomplish anything.

00;32;02;19 - 00;32;25;07

Speaker 2

Yeah I appreciate it. I don't was it John Linux that said it I can't remember. Somebody said it probably wasn't him anyway, for that materialistic mindset of like, well, we're all just what they call like meat bags with like, hormone electrons bouncing around in our brains, and that's all we are. the next question was like, then why should I trust anything you're saying?

00;32;25;12 - 00;32;46;24

Speaker 2

Like, if you're if what's happening up here is just electrons bouncing around to keep this meat bag alive, and you're telling me how that is? Why should I trust what's, like, these random sparks in your brain like that? Doesn't like your logic, doesn't come to a like to a appropriate conclusion from your own perspective, which I was like, oh, that makes sense.

00;32;46;25 - 00;32;57;26

Speaker 2

Like that's a that's a decent, not necessary argument, but just observation for that kind of mindset. And I think that they just ignore it. There's like no thank you.

00;32;57;29 - 00;32;58;27

Speaker 1

You're like, okay.

00;32;59;00 - 00;33;00;06

Speaker 3

You're dumb.

00;33;00;09 - 00;33;06;06

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like you just don't understand. Like so I was like, we both don't understand, but okay.

00;33;06;08 - 00;33;35;07

Speaker 4

Yeah. So I mean eyes are complex, but, you know, it doesn't stop there. our ears are arguably just as complex. in our hearing. So. Ears, the shape of our ears is important. like the various folds and, you know, structure of ears helps us determine, the direction of sound, because the sound waves pass through your ears in different, way.

00;33;35;08 - 00;34;11;05

Speaker 4

Like, you know, anywhere. It's thinner, it passes through easier where it's thicker, it doesn't. And your brain interprets that and like, does some fancy algorithm apparently that helps you detect the direction of the sound. not only that, our brains are capable of distinguishing, within, like, very fine, like very short amount of time. The difference in, like, my left ear will hear Josh before my right ear does, and it'll then conclude that it came from that direction.

00;34;11;07 - 00;34;46;15

Speaker 4

our ear structure is, has, you know, the three smallest bones in the human body and those tiny little bones in your ear. Translate, air vibrations into your inner ear, which then, is more its fluid base. So it, like, hits the drum. And then that, moves the fluid in your ear, to then go past all those little tiny hair, is that then get vibe like each tiny little hair is just the right length for a certain frequency.

00;34;46;22 - 00;35;12;17

Speaker 4

So when the frequency hits the little hair in your ear, for lack of a better term, like that triggers a certain frequency of sound. And then your brain interprets that as hearing. and that's just the oversimplified version of how you hear, like some interesting things about the ear as well. Those three little bones in your, ear, they do not grow like when you born.

00;35;12;17 - 00;35;32;16

Speaker 4

They are the same size as when you die. and like, that's the only part of your body that doesn't grow. How did that evolve? Right? Like, how did those three bones know not to grow in every part of the rest of your body knows that, like, grows it like we don't know.

00;35;32;18 - 00;35;33;04

Speaker 1

evolved.

00;35;33;04 - 00;35;34;04

Speaker 2

Perfectly the first time.

00;35;34;09 - 00;35;34;21

Speaker 4

Yeah.

00;35;34;21 - 00;35;36;05

Speaker 2

No changes needed.

00;35;36;07 - 00;35;37;14

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah.

00;35;37;17 - 00;35;41;21

Speaker 5

It reminds me when someone said that words are wiggly. Er.

00;35;41;23 - 00;35;44;00

Speaker 1

It's true. It's 100% true.

00;35;44;00 - 00;35;46;01

Speaker 5

We're just interpreting wiggly. Er.

00;35;46;07 - 00;35;47;13

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah.

00;35;47;15 - 00;35;50;08

Speaker 5

It's whatever it means of communication.

00;35;50;13 - 00;35;56;24

Speaker 2

When our eyeballs are just converting light, bouncing off of other things. We're not actually seeing anything. We're seeing the light bouncing on like that.

00;35;56;26 - 00;36;03;02

Speaker 4

We're seeing the light. A small fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum. Yeah. And interpreting it as visual information to.

00;36;03;02 - 00;36;03;19

Speaker 1

Blind.

00;36;03;24 - 00;36;06;04

Speaker 2

What is reality next class.

00;36;06;06 - 00;36;10;08

Speaker 1

That's it. Right. That's that's philosophy. Sorry. We'll get into that.

00;36;10;08 - 00;36;20;10

Speaker 3

And that's when he talks about like the blind spot in our eyes. And then that begs the question of like, well then if that's true that there is that blind spot in your brain is photoshopping that, then how can you trust that?

00;36;20;13 - 00;36;20;25

Speaker 4

Yeah.

00;36;20;27 - 00;36;21;10

Speaker 2

What do you see?

00;36;21;17 - 00;36;23;19

Speaker 5

Eyewitness testimony is not. Yeah.

00;36;23;21 - 00;36;24;12

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;36;24;15 - 00;36;29;20

Speaker 4

Yeah. How much of your senses can you really trust? Yeah, that's a interesting one.

00;36;29;20 - 00;36;39;09

Speaker 2

Jesus says bring more people to the situation. Yeah. Like, don't just be by yourself. Bring 1 or 2 or 2 or 3 of you.

00;36;39;12 - 00;36;43;09

Speaker 3

Ridiculous. Like can good on that one. What is truth.

00;36;43;09 - 00;36;46;21

Speaker 1

And what is reality? Whatever. We're on.

00;36;46;21 - 00;36;47;15

Speaker 4

The 16.

00;36;47;15 - 00;36;48;13

Speaker 3

Hundreds philosopher.

00;36;48;18 - 00;36;49;08

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;36;49;10 - 00;36;56;25

Speaker 4

On the way here, I was talking to Charles. Once we finish through some of this stuff, I'd actually like to move into philosophy. And there's a great.

00;36;56;26 - 00;36;57;20

Speaker 1

Need for.

00;36;57;22 - 00;36;58;04

Speaker 4

Structure.

00;36;58;10 - 00;37;01;22

Speaker 1

No, no, no, I know, I know, I love it, I know, yeah.

00;37;01;24 - 00;37;10;28

Speaker 4

You know, like talking about the various Western philosophers and, like, what, the various ideas they've had over time and how that's changed. I think that'll be a really interesting thing to dive into.

00;37;11;00 - 00;37;11;27

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

00;37;11;29 - 00;37;14;20

Speaker 2

We'll just bring camomile tea so we all leave like.

00;37;14;22 - 00;37;19;06

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah, everything's okay. Everything is okay. It was.

00;37;19;08 - 00;37;19;25

Speaker 4

a ray of.

00;37;19;25 - 00;37;23;27

Speaker 1

Hope. Yes. Everyone will get existential dread. If we.

00;37;23;27 - 00;37;27;13

Speaker 2

All live. We're like, nothing is worth it anymore.

00;37;27;15 - 00;37;28;29

Speaker 4

Especially if we talk about Nietzsche.

00;37;28;29 - 00;37;30;20

Speaker 1

No,

00;37;30;23 - 00;38;10;17

Speaker 4

It's so another interesting aspect of human life in in most. Well, actually, not most life. reproduction. So most life is cellular in nature, bacteria and stuff like that. And they, reproduce in a process called mitosis, which is a pretty complex process within itself, where the cell has to create an exact copy of itself and copy its DNA and structures, and then it divides, which is an incredibly complex orchestration of events.

00;38;10;20 - 00;38;37;14

Speaker 4

there's a lot of things that can go wrong in mitosis, and that's actually where a lot of, if I remember correctly, a lot of antibacterial or antibiotics, they mess with the mitosis functions because it's a, it's an area of vulnerability. I think a lot of them mess with the cell walls. So when, when the cell is dividing, it has to, keep, homeostasis.

00;38;37;14 - 00;39;02;21

Speaker 4

Right. But it's dividing. So how do you keep how do you separate and keep homeostasis. What's the cell wall. And there's a lot of complex biochemistry that happens to enable that without the both the cells dying. and antibiotics a lot of times mess with that process and the cell wall fails and then the both cells die and you can't get reproduction.

00;39;02;24 - 00;39;23;14

Speaker 4

so, you know, and then in evolutionary terms, bacteria and in single celled organisms are more simple. And we evolved from those. So why did sexual reproduction happen? what is the advantages of sexual reproduction from an evolutionary standpoint?

00;39;23;18 - 00;39;25;00

Speaker 5

Genetic diversity.

00;39;25;03 - 00;39;30;23

Speaker 4

Yeah. Yeah. genetic diversity. Excuse me.

00;39;30;25 - 00;39;32;29

Speaker 5

Meiosis versus mitosis.

00;39;33;02 - 00;40;23;24

Speaker 4

Yeah. Good. Good terminology. So like. Yeah. Genetic diversity. genome repair. So like if there's, errors in the genome, then like, it can be corrected through, you know, joining to together. What are the difficulties or like why. if you think about it like why what's the advantages other than that? Like, how does a cell get to the point where it has a counterpart cell that it joins with shares information combines that DNA to create a unique thing.

00;40;23;27 - 00;40;29;12

Speaker 2

And then usually that turns into cancer. And everybody's like, that doesn't usually end well.

00;40;29;15 - 00;40;51;12

Speaker 4

Yeah. Like how did the first meiosis cell begin? Right. Like you needed that. You really needed the counterpart to evolve at the exact same time and, and then find each other and then it go forward like that. Seems difficult to say the least.

00;40;51;15 - 00;40;55;06

Speaker 5

Does that happen in asexual reproduction, I wonder?

00;40;56;09 - 00;41;26;08

Speaker 4

I so yeah, most most. So there's only a few examples of asexual reproduction in nature, and I'd have to look into it in detail. But I, I think what happens is those animals end up, having both sides of the equation and like just happening within its own body. it, I think it's still, meiosis like meiosis thing, but just within itself.

00;41;26;10 - 00;41;28;10

Speaker 4

but I could be wrong. I'd have to look into that more.

00;41;28;16 - 00;41;49;12

Speaker 2

I think that's usually the case. And it's like there was I don't know, I think it was late last year, there was an article that popped out and like, I, I think a few, I think it went very far, but a few evolutionary like, hurrah! People were like, see what it's happening? It's right there. there was a male at a zoo.

00;41;49;15 - 00;41;50;28

Speaker 2

I think it was a monkey.

00;41;50;28 - 00;41;52;00

Speaker 1

It could have been a panda.

00;41;52;00 - 00;42;12;16

Speaker 2

I'm not sure I know it was a mammal that got pregnant, had been in its cage all by itself for years. Years and years and years and years all alone. And then they went to check in on it one day, and it was pregnant. Like, what in the world? So they were like, look, it's happening like like mammals are evolving to get pregnant all by themselves.

00;42;12;23 - 00;42;37;07

Speaker 2

And it turns out. They're this is gonna sound so inappropriate, but it's what happened. There was a hole between cages, and she got pregnant by the male creature next door, and they just were like, can't it look, instead of jumping to a rational conclusion of, like, we know how the female mammal gets pregnant, it doesn't happen by itself.

00;42;37;14 - 00;42;47;05

Speaker 2

They literally jumped right to it when like, right next door was like the male counterpart and were like, there's no way. There's just no way. And turns out, yeah, someone figured it out and.

00;42;47;06 - 00;42;48;24

Speaker 3

I found a way.

00;42;48;27 - 00;42;49;27

Speaker 2

Always does.

00;42;49;27 - 00;42;53;19

Speaker 1

Yeah. Where there's a will, there's a way that.

00;42;53;19 - 00;43;08;25

Speaker 2

But like that article popped out and it was I followed it for a while because I was like, there's no way there's no way. And they were like, look, it's amazing. It's a miracle. It's wonderful. And they're like, oh, dang. Nope. It was just the same old, same old. I was like, guys, guys, wait and see, wait and see.

00;43;08;25 - 00;43;12;01

Speaker 2

There's gotta be rational explanation for it. And there was.

00;43;12;03 - 00;43;37;27

Speaker 4

Yeah. So like one of the challenges for evolutionary science is it's double the effort with half the offspring. So you think about that. Like from an evolutionary standpoint, the goal is reproduction. Just the to reproduce your genes going forward. Well, now that you have sexual reproduction you're only passing for half your genes. And you need all of this special equipment to do so.

00;43;38;00 - 00;44;13;13

Speaker 4

and that's not efficient for copying your genes. beneficial mutations get deluded. So, as you know, evolution is happening. You get, you know, let's use the example. You get a creature that randomly got a cluster of light sensitive cells. Great. It reproduces with one that doesn't have that because it happened once, because it's a freak mutation.

00;44;13;15 - 00;44;26;08

Speaker 4

now that offspring, the offspring is, you know, that that special tweak is getting diluted, and the offspring may or may not have those that that mutation.

00;44;26;09 - 00;44;38;07

Speaker 2

You look at colorblindness, it's a male trait, and gets passed from the male gene. Like that's not beneficial to be colorblind sex is true. Totally is.

00;44;38;10 - 00;44;58;11

Speaker 4

Fortunately, actually, there is some benefit to being colorblind technically. So when you're colorblind, you actually sense motion better. So they say it's actually advantageous for hunting. And that's why a lot of carnivores are colorblind, like dogs. it helps them see motion and focus on that versus, color, which.

00;44;58;11 - 00;45;20;00

Speaker 2

Helps. But it's a huge thing, right? In a society where color is quite beneficial, such as if I eat that tree frog that's very brightly colored, or that mushroom that's the wrong color, I'm going to die. So color seems to be extremely important for the human species. Yeah. And yet we continuously pass on a garbage trait.

00;45;20;02 - 00;45;21;04

Speaker 4

No.

00;45;21;07 - 00;45;31;17

Speaker 2

Yeah. So sexual reproduction, humans doesn't seem to be as beneficial if you're looking at it from beneficial mutations. Yep. Getting diluted.

00;45;31;20 - 00;45;32;03

Speaker 4

Yeah.

00;45;32;03 - 00;45;39;28

Speaker 5

And we're more animalistic and get rid of the offspring. Yeah. That had non beneficial traits. We wouldn't keep passing them.

00;45;40;00 - 00;45;42;26

Speaker 2

potentially just but hold.

00;45;42;26 - 00;45;43;22

Speaker 3

On we're getting there.

00;45;43;23 - 00;45;58;03

Speaker 2

But for that to happen you have to raise them long enough to teach them language to determine that they're not saying colors appropriately. And you've wasted resources on that child up until maybe age, what, 4 or 5? So even then, that's not even beneficial.

00;45;58;03 - 00;45;59;29

Speaker 3

We're in down syndrome.

00;46;00;04 - 00;46;01;28

Speaker 2

Right? Right away. I don't like you that.

00;46;02;00 - 00;46;28;02

Speaker 4

Well, I mean, in in that is a interesting side effect. So if you take so if you're an evolutionary scientist, eugenics becomes almost a conclusion, like a, like, like if you're going to be consistent in your thinking and how things go, you're going to lean more towards the eugenics program. But very few, evolutionists do because of the morality of it.

00;46;28;04 - 00;46;41;10

Speaker 4

It's it's there's something like written on their hearts or something that keeps them weird doing that. but, you know, you see it in history, like, the Nazi regime, like, they were like. Yeah, eugenics. Like.

00;46;41;13 - 00;46;44;24

Speaker 1

I mean, the United States did it. The at the time.

00;46;45;00 - 00;46;46;24

Speaker 4

It's true. They're just more subtle.

00;46;46;27 - 00;46;47;29

Speaker 1

It's not a Planned Parenthood.

00;46;48;03 - 00;47;14;02

Speaker 2

It goes it goes back further than that. The like Romans like like Christian during during the Roman Empire. Like if they had a weak child, if the, if a Roman mother gave birth to a child and that child seemed weak or was female for that matter, they would just set it outside and wait for the elements to kill the baby, because it was it was weak and it was Christian individuals that would come around and rescue them.

00;47;14;04 - 00;47;38;19

Speaker 2

Yeah. And like that's kind of where some, some informal adopt like that Christian I don't know. Anyway, historical stuff. But even then, like it just simply was you're not useful. And it wasn't politically minded. It was simply they were like, you're not you're not a person, you're a resource taker, and you're not beneficial to us. We'll just put you outside, let nature take its course.

00;47;38;19 - 00;47;53;16

Speaker 4

Yeah, I mean, it it when you logically conclude, if you logically conclude that humanity is just flesh robots, right, then the value of life is meaningless and you might as well make it. It's strong so it can survive.

00;47;53;20 - 00;47;58;02

Speaker 2

The war should be an option. You should just be able to get rid of your spouse or child.

00;47;58;03 - 00;48;07;17

Speaker 4

I mean, if you if you keep if you keep moving it forward, like you don't even pick your spouse, right? Like you just it's it it's like cattle breeding at that point, you know, like.

00;48;07;17 - 00;48;10;00

Speaker 2

Just pass along genetic meaning. Yeah. Information in.

00;48;10;00 - 00;48;22;10

Speaker 4

The long. Yeah. So yeah, there's there's, morally like difficult things when you start saying that humans are nothing more than accidental creations.

00;48;22;11 - 00;48;28;22

Speaker 2

Peter Singer is that his name? Yeah. Peter singer yeah. Read his stuff if you wonder what people think.

00;48;28;23 - 00;48;36;11

Speaker 4

Yeah. So Peter Singer, he's a he's a I think he calls himself a philosopher, but he, he has some interesting thoughts.

00;48;36;13 - 00;48;37;06

Speaker 2

He's consistent.

00;48;37;13 - 00;49;07;19

Speaker 4

He, he's someone who is consistent in his thinking but has a non-Christian outlook. So he basically like on abortion, he says abortion is, silly because there's there's no difference between, like what is passing. I think a wave races what is passing through the cervix due to a baby that makes them a human being. but instead of saying, hey, that's a that's a reason why not to have abortion, he says, let's take it further.

00;49;07;21 - 00;49;14;22

Speaker 4

Like, if that child is not wanted after birth, emphasized like or he supports infantile.

00;49;14;25 - 00;49;38;11

Speaker 2

Or like a two year old four year old, if at any point in time that because it's wanted and what is a wanted individual probably someone that is contributing to society or to your family in a beneficial way. When does a kid actually do that past their parents just being like, you just bring me fulfillment. They bring no money, they take resources, they take sleep, they they take for a very long time.

00;49;38;14 - 00;49;48;07

Speaker 2

And so if at any point in time that becomes too much for an adult to bear, then then getting rid of that child at any point should be acceptable.

00;49;48;10 - 00;49;48;27

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;49;48;29 - 00;50;04;03

Speaker 2

Because there's nothing beneficial about them until they either can breed or bring money or bring resource. Like it's just the logical conclusion. If life is not important, then it's all about fulfilling society's need for.

00;50;04;04 - 00;50;08;16

Speaker 4

X, Y. Yeah, is morally injectable is I am with his conclusions.

00;50;08;18 - 00;50;09;16

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;50;09;19 - 00;50;33;22

Speaker 4

I actually respect his, view more just because he's consistent in his thinking. Yeah. Like he's not dumb delusional. He's saying that there's something different with, baby inside and outside because, you know, a lot of, a lot of times people say, well, a baby is dependent on its mother when it's in the womb. The baby is dependent on its mother when it's outside the womb.

00;50;33;24 - 00;50;54;18

Speaker 4

Like a baby is not going to survive without their mother, or a caretaker. It's still fully dependent, like nothing has changed from it being inside to out. and he's like, you know, he just has the opposite conclusion in saying that, like, life doesn't have meaning in itself. Life only has meaning for those like we give things meaning.

00;50;54;18 - 00;51;02;05

Speaker 4

So no one is wanting them. Then you know. Yeah. Why not?

00;51;02;08 - 00;51;02;28

Speaker 3

Euthanasia.

00;51;03;01 - 00;51;08;19

Speaker 2

Absolutely yes. Because at what point are you no longer wanted by society, even when you've lived your whole life?

00;51;08;21 - 00;51;27;08

Speaker 4

Yeah. You're just a drain on the system, right? Yeah, yeah. It gets super complicated and like, well, you know, thank God that he put morality on our hearts. Because if he hadn't, I think those eugenics and all like it would have like nothing would have stopped in it. But you know that moral.

00;51;27;12 - 00;51;46;28

Speaker 2

Well, you look at China in the one child law. Like, what does that look like when it plays out even even just in, in childhood. Right. Because during that time and they're, they're reaping the consequences, unfortunately of that now where there's not enough women for all of the single men and those women are not wanting to have babies and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00;51;46;28 - 00;52;10;27

Speaker 2

But during that time they were like, you can have one child and it was only beneficial to have a son. So all of those female babies, they were killed or they were hidden or they were hurt in terrible ways or thrown into orphanages, etc.. And and it's from a place of like life, life's not important. And these babies must have purpose.

00;52;10;27 - 00;52;33;16

Speaker 2

And purpose was like having an heir. And that heir would have to be a man, a boy like, oh, it's intense, but you can see how that plays out. And there's other societies from historical past. Or if we dig deep enough, you can see like what happens. Like we're not the first society to have these conversations and thoughts and then to do something with them.

00;52;33;21 - 00;52;35;07

Speaker 4

No, I mean, I think all right.

00;52;35;10 - 00;52;36;11

Speaker 2

Now that you said no.

00;52;36;15 - 00;52;39;07

Speaker 4

Our society today is moving more towards a pagan.

00;52;39;14 - 00;52;40;13

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;52;40;15 - 00;53;05;25

Speaker 4

Mindset religion without knowing it. Yeah. in a lot of ways. Yeah. But that's a, that's another topic. Again. so we talked a little bit about the cardiovascular system, but there's a lot going there. Right. Like there's a lot, you know, blood is associated with life for good reason. in the heart is a key component of our bodies.

00;53;05;25 - 00;53;36;18

Speaker 4

And it has historically always been known to for that, the heart actually, you know, so it's made of muscle, but it's a unique kind of muscle, that has a special clump of cells that, triggers the a, atria to contract. So, like, there's a clump, but there's a, there's a special area of cells in the heart that controls the heart rate, basically.

00;53;36;20 - 00;54;09;08

Speaker 4

and there's like, yeah, yeah. exactly. In that, that is unique to the heart. And, is critical for regulating blood pressure and making sure the body has the, the, the blood pumping through it. I think we have something like 60,000 miles of veins for, for our home to pump, pump through body. I think that's the I think that's what I read.

00;54;09;08 - 00;54;15;04

Speaker 4

I didn't note it down, but it's it's a lot. Whatever the specific number is, is a lot.

00;54;15;07 - 00;54;16;02

Speaker 1

the 50,000.

00;54;16;04 - 00;54;44;02

Speaker 4

Yeah. 60,000 miles of veins in our bodies that our heart has to pump blood to, which is just incredible when you think about it. one of the interesting things, that I found is so iron is key to latching on to oxygen in the lungs. capillaries. Right. iron is what carries oxygen in the blood throughout the body.

00;54;44;04 - 00;55;24;01

Speaker 4

The problem, though, is iron is toxic when it's present in the, in the body free form. Like if you just have iron flowing through your body. that's toxic and can kill you. So, what happened? what, you know, designed or evolved there, you know, the you be the judge is hemoglobin, which is a special protein, was specially created in red blood cells to capture and hold onto iron so that it doesn't freely flow throughout the body.

00;55;24;04 - 00;55;51;15

Speaker 4

And it's a very, structured protein that has a very, clear, you know, shape so that it can hold on to iron so that then that iron can grab on to the oxygen, and you have this hemoglobin with iron and oxygen, and then that can take it throughout the body. So you can think of a how does hemoglobin hemoglobin evolve.

00;55;51;17 - 00;56;21;16

Speaker 4

Because you know there's this problem with iron being toxic. so life couldn't have used like you couldn't have had blood working the way we know it works without hemoglobin. So then how do you oxygenate the body? You get this, quickly. You get this chicken in a problem, and that, you know, there's not a good answer to.

00;56;21;19 - 00;56;51;18

Speaker 4

So another challenge for our cardiovascular system is we are not static beings, so we move around an activity, we do activities, you know, and, when we start, stressing our bodies with running or going around, whatever it might be, we need more oxygen. So the system has to, move up and you kind of get this feedback and thing again, right?

00;56;51;18 - 00;57;23;15

Speaker 4

Where, like, as you increase your activity, you have higher O2 demands in there, sensors in the body that, that, measure O2 levels and have the body respond to that so that it all continues to work despite having more of a strain. And not only that, like, our body position changes the.

00;57;23;17 - 00;57;55;05

Speaker 4

Like pressure. So, like, when you hold your hand up in the air, your heart has to work a tiny bit harder to pump blood up there. you know, if you, if you invert yourself, you know, blood kind of rushes your head, but it doesn't, like, kill you, because your body has control mechanisms for that. So, like, just the way your body is moving throughout space affects how your cardiovascular system responds.

00;57;55;08 - 00;58;04;06

Speaker 4

it's something that we just take for granted every day. it's pretty, pretty incredible.

00;58;04;08 - 00;58;06;10

Speaker 4

immune system. So Charles talked about this.

00;58;06;10 - 00;58;08;09

Speaker 2

Sorry about that. I didn't know you were going to talk about that.

00;58;08;11 - 00;58;09;20

Speaker 1

No. It's okay.

00;58;09;22 - 00;58;10;05

Speaker 4

It's okay.

00;58;10;08 - 00;58;12;08

Speaker 2

I should read your notes at the time.

00;58;12;10 - 00;58;13;08

Speaker 1

yeah.

00;58;13;11 - 00;58;44;24

Speaker 4

The immune system is, amazing, and. And I probably can't do it justice. I'd have to, like. Honestly, we probably talk about the immune system for a whole class, because it's it's so interesting. one of the things that makes it interesting is there's layered defenses to your immune system. It's not just a single defense mechanism, but we have, so we have what they call innate immunity, which is a fast, nonspecific response.

00;58;44;27 - 00;58;57;20

Speaker 4

So this is what kicks in, like when you cut yourself and you know, you're now, your homeostasis is threatened because your skin is breached and bacteria can get in or anything can get in, and.

00;58;57;20 - 00;58;58;18

Speaker 2

Blood can pull out.

00;58;58;24 - 00;58;59;11

Speaker 4

And blood can.

00;58;59;11 - 00;59;01;19

Speaker 1

Pull up.

00;59;01;21 - 00;59;05;02

Speaker 4

it's a weird way to say it, but that is how what happens?

00;59;06;12 - 00;59;26;06

Speaker 4

So it needs to do something about that. So the immune system is responsible for, attacking the invaders that come in like you've got every time you cut yourself, bacteria is getting into your body and your your immune system just takes care of it most of the time. Like no problems. Just.

00;59;26;10 - 00;59;45;03

Speaker 2

And it's not like you warn it ahead of time. Like I'm going to cut myself on like this knife that has E.coli be prepared. It just comes at it with everything it needs and is like, it doesn't matter what comes in, it's ready with something. Yeah, like that's wild. That's insane.

00;59;45;05 - 00;59;46;17

Speaker 1

To me. Yep.

00;59;46;19 - 01;00;10;17

Speaker 4

And so you have like this fast response immunity and then you have more of adaptive immunity. It's slower, but it becomes more highly specific. and it creates targeted antibodies and memory cells, which is, a whole topic within itself. But it's where, like, our immunity actually grows and gets smarter.

01;00;10;19 - 01;00;13;29

Speaker 2

And it can go either.

01;00;14;02 - 01;00;46;09

Speaker 4

Yeah. I mean, it will help your I mean, it will as long as it doesn't take you out, it'll make you stronger. Yes. For sure. Yeah. So your immune system has different types of, I mean, you can think of it as an army and there's different types of specialized units in that army. You have your your front line, you know, white blood cells that kind of act quickly and are more of a generic solution.

01;00;46;11 - 01;01;12;05

Speaker 4

but then you have bacteria that outsmart those white blood cells. So then your body has to take a look at it from a more specialized point of view. And that's where your body, I mean, I'm kind of broad stroking this. It's more complicated than I'm making it out to be. but you have B cells that basically are like scouts that say, I think this is correct.

01;01;12;12 - 01;01;36;10

Speaker 4

They go out in the, you know, like analyze the enemy, take it back. And that helps inform your body to create, antibodies. And then the T cells go out and direct attack against the other cells like it's it's phenomenally complex and amazing. maybe we can email out the video. Yes.

01;01;36;10 - 01;01;37;06

Speaker 2

Let's let's recap. Yeah.

01;01;37;11 - 01;02;03;07

Speaker 4

There's there's a serious a series of videos that talk about this in detail. They're kind of fun to watch because they're even. But, it goes into bit better detail tonight and it's, it's it's just like, jaw droppingly crazy how well your body does this. And, I think it was from one of those videos, like, apparently your body has everything it needs to defeat any.

01;02;03;09 - 01;02;03;26

Speaker 2

Anything.

01;02;04;01 - 01;02;08;02

Speaker 4

Anything. And the problem is, can your body, your emails.

01;02;08;02 - 01;02;09;17

Speaker 1

Yes. I mean.

01;02;09;19 - 01;02;18;07

Speaker 4

If the question is like, can your body respond quick enough? And like, can you figure it out fast enough. We can find the solution.

01;02;18;10 - 01;02;27;15

Speaker 3

And big enough. I mean like just we have the capacity to defeat, you know Mercury. You know like if you drink, if you drink a gallon.

01;02;27;15 - 01;02;35;06

Speaker 4

Of it like yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If your body is overwhelmed you can't make enough of the you can't like it's this is a soldier problem right.

01;02;35;10 - 01;02;36;16

Speaker 5

You got to treat it like I. Okay.

01;02;36;16 - 01;02;40;00

Speaker 3

Powder you really small increments. Yeah. Build up an immunity.

01;02;40;00 - 01;03;07;16

Speaker 4

Yeah. Yeah. And that's where the first vaccinations came from basically. Is, is that, Yeah. And then, like, your body, remembers specific antibodies that are useful for fighting specific bacteria and infections. So, like, the next time you get it, it's not a big deal. You know, like chicken pox, you know, you get it first and then you got to your body figures out how to deal with chicken pox.

01;03;07;16 - 01;03;13;14

Speaker 4

And now you're good. like that is, yeah.

01;03;13;15 - 01;03;17;20

Speaker 5

Like that's or how a mom passes in breast milk.

01;03;17;23 - 01;03;18;06

Speaker 1

Yeah.

01;03;18;08 - 01;03;20;23

Speaker 2

Yeah. It's wild. It's unbelievable.

01;03;20;26 - 01;03;50;19

Speaker 4

Unbelievable. Yeah. The memory cells basically can provide a faster, stronger response. And the next time you face that same challenger. yeah. And you and it's it is a war. Like it is a microscopic war. Like there are bacteria and viruses and, pathogens like that want to destroy it. Like you want to reproduce your body, to reproduce and, to live out its life cycle.

01;03;50;21 - 01;04;13;20

Speaker 4

and your body is creating a counter attack for that. And most of the time, like, it just does it in, you know, I would say I don't know if there's numbers on this, but most of the time your body doesn't even react to those things. Like you don't even notice it. you know, there are things where like you do end up noticing it when you get like the flu and stuff like that, and you start getting symptoms.

01;04;13;23 - 01;04;17;27

Speaker 4

but then your body conquers it. Then to it's, it's it's incredible.

01;04;17;29 - 01;04;21;03

Speaker 1

It's it. I don't know, it.

01;04;21;05 - 01;04;30;06

Speaker 4

I came across as recently and within the past couple of years and it just like it was one of those jaw dropping things where I was like, wow, that is way more complex and intricate than I thought it was.

01;04;30;08 - 01;04;33;24

Speaker 1

Medicine is so cool. Oh.

01;04;33;27 - 01;05;19;19

Speaker 4

Excuse me. the last the last thing I wanted to cover, today with the body. And, like, literally, you could pick any body part and discover something amazing about it. like, we went to a conference a couple years ago and someone was, talking about the human foot and how incredible it is in the house. Yeah, foot and ankle, like how optimize it is for the what we do, like three points of contract, contact and then, like, how it flexes and like, how it's just engineered perfectly for what we do, and we don't even think about it.

01;05;19;22 - 01;05;50;14

Speaker 4

so, yeah, like every single bite or has amazing things about it, but another one that's kind of stood out to me is uniquely interesting for the purposes of, you know, evidence is for design is the, clotting cascade. So this is similar to immunity, but a bit different, like when you injure yourself or cut open your skin, your body has to silk like you don't want to, you know, all your blood to fall out.

01;05;50;20 - 01;05;51;04

Speaker 4

So it needs.

01;05;51;04 - 01;05;51;19

Speaker 1

To fall.

01;05;51;19 - 01;06;26;01

Speaker 4

Out. It needs to it needs to clot. the problem is, excessive clotting within blood vessels can block circulation, causing strokes and heart attacks. So your body needs a mechanism to stop bleeding, but not too much where it causes clots. and that is a huge, like, hard balance. And that is not fully understood on how our bodies can clot the right amount in the right place with the right efforts.

01;06;26;03 - 01;06;39;19

Speaker 4

It so we have, you know, platelets that are small cell fragments that stick to injuries, and are released when our body releases the clotting signals and.

01;06;39;24 - 01;06;57;09

Speaker 3

The blood flowing out thing. So you think about, like, and, and, even though it's all integrated yet there's the separation because like, when the blood does fall out, it's like you can't just be like, oh, well, I was put back in the. Yeah, like I'll just ingest that. And then it's fine because it's back in there.

01;06;57;12 - 01;06;58;03

Speaker 4

Yeah.

01;06;58;05 - 01;06;59;28

Speaker 3

But wait, no, that doesn't work that way.

01;06;59;29 - 01;07;01;16

Speaker 2

Vampires don't exist for a reason.

01;07;01;20 - 01;07;04;14

Speaker 1

Yeah, it doesn't works. Yeah.

01;07;04;16 - 01;07;41;06

Speaker 4

And yeah. So yeah, our our body detects damage and then proteins are released in the blood. They create a cascade reaction to help that clot form. But then we have anti clotting proteins that limit the clotting and break breakdown clots as healing occurs because it has celiac. Right. That's where that's where things go wrong. like they're like this is such a balanced thing that there are terrible diseases where we're clotting goes wrong either one way or the other way.

01;07;41;09 - 01;08;00;21

Speaker 4

so if you, if you have, if you, if you don't have, the correct anti-clotting proteins, or they're not as effective as they should, you're risk of, a clot and heart attack are extremely high. and you're probably on blood thinners and stuff like that.

01;08;00;21 - 01;08;23;16

Speaker 2

We have in our family. It's a female genetic, disorder that gets passed down through the female line. It's called factor five because I had to get tested for it. My cousin couldn't have babies anymore because it. She was clotting like crazy, and they test tested, and she has factor five, so she clots too much. And so when she gets pregnant, she loses the baby because she clots.

01;08;23;16 - 01;08;26;29

Speaker 2

And it doesn't allow for his while. That's crazy.

01;08;27;06 - 01;08;27;18

Speaker 4

Yeah.

01;08;27;21 - 01;08;35;29

Speaker 2

And that's just one like that's just one small genetic potential breakdown in that. It's wild.

01;08;36;01 - 01;09;01;25

Speaker 4

Yeah. And I think one of the interesting things about clotting is like it has to have a positive feedback loop, right. Like not every injury is equal. So your body has to recognize what is the extent of this damage and then have the appropriate response clotting response. If it doesn't, you're going to have problems. and like it doesn't have a lot of time to figure it out.

01;09;01;25 - 01;09;23;28

Speaker 4

Like, like if you cut yourself, in the right way and you're bleeding significantly, the body has to aim for that clotting up quickly, or you're or you're going to bleed out, and like, balancing that and like, how does your, how do and we're not talking about like, you're not consciously doing any of this. Right.

01;09;24;00 - 01;09;26;00

Speaker 4

There's no, there's no.

01;09;26;27 - 01;09;54;24

Speaker 4

All it's all automatic. And there's no directive. Like, it's not like you look at your injury and like, oh, that's bad. And tell your clotting system to, like, ramp it up like these cells have mechanisms built into themselves to, amplify and create a positive feedback loop. Okay, this isn't enough. This isn't enough, this isn't enough. And in escalate that up.

01;09;54;24 - 01;10;19;25

Speaker 4

And then as soon as it gets to the right level, it's like, okay, back down, back down, back down. and like it's it's extremely, there's this extremely low failure point. Yeah. Like, it just has to be right on that balance. It cannot be off. and like, there's, there's many, kind of like the immune system.

01;10;19;25 - 01;10;57;04

Speaker 4

There's many layers to, clotting mechanisms, like, like where and how and what the damage is, and like, there's intake, coagulant in the blood. The help of these things. It's, Yeah, it's a really interesting problem for evolutionary explanations because how do you get a system that successfully does this calling cascade when there's such fine tolerances for it to be functional?

01;10;57;06 - 01;11;29;12

Speaker 4

any, you know, these proteins, these, these clotting proteins and enzyme proteins need to both be there, to effectively have an effective clotting system. and it just makes me think we've you know, plotting is amazing. Immunity is amazing. how are, like, all of these systems are incredibly important. how do they. Like, where are all the failures?

01;11;29;14 - 01;12;10;19

Speaker 4

Right. I think is where it comes down to, like, if if life evolved. There had to have been so many failures before something worked correctly. Yeah. you know, and I think, you know, evolutionary biologists would argue with that and say, well, yeah, I mean, you got genetic diseases, you have genetic mutations that cause horrible things. And then, you know, they can't reproduce, you know, but these codependent systems having to have these mutations, basically at the same time that are, that are that work together to form a system like that takes planning ahead.

01;12;10;19 - 01;12;35;08

Speaker 4

It takes engineering. that's why we don't see clocks, coming out of nature. That's why we don't see advanced machinery just happening. or, you know, going back to an earlier class. That's why we don't see, your name written in the sand on the beach, like on accident, like the road. It's just not something nature does on its own.

01;12;35;10 - 01;12;47;02

Speaker 4

And we have to engineer solutions to these problems and create the feedback loops and the sensors and systems, by their very nature, are dependent on the piece before it.

01;12;47;05 - 01;12;59;06

Speaker 3

It's what arguments do. Like the evolutionary biologists. What do they point to as evidence for in, looking at like the fossil record or they look, kind of like, how do they get their.

01;12;59;08 - 01;13;16;28

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. And that's a good segue to, you know, advocate for next month, because some of the arguments are like, our bodies are actually poorly designed. and yours is.

01;13;16;28 - 01;13;26;07

Speaker 1

Now, I know I went to a doctor. Sometimes it feels that way. but, like, gorgeous, you know.

01;13;26;09 - 01;13;34;25

Speaker 4

But you have things like, you know, term vestigial organs or, things that are like, you know, the, the,

01;13;34;27 - 01;13;36;04

Speaker 2

Like the pancreas. Yeah.

01;13;36;04 - 01;13;36;24

Speaker 4

The pancreas.

01;13;36;24 - 01;13;37;27

Speaker 2

No, sorry. The appendix, the.

01;13;37;27 - 01;13;39;03

Speaker 4

Appendix, the tonsils.

01;13;39;03 - 01;13;40;06

Speaker 1

Tonsils.

01;13;40;08 - 01;13;57;28

Speaker 4

Yeah. You don't really need those. We left over. you know, like, if we are really well engineered, we wouldn't have x, y, z problem. and there's quite a few of those poor didn't like. If things are truly designed, then they should be designed. Well, And how do how do we answer that? Well, I think.

01;13;57;28 - 01;14;01;16

Speaker 1

Some, Yeah.

01;14;01;19 - 01;14;30;14

Speaker 4

Maybe. but I think there's other counterarguments and we'll talk through what those, you know, what those things are that they say are poorly designed. And then is there actually function there. Is it actually fully optimized for the two different, goals, like when you're solving design problems or engineering problems? maybe I'm foreshadowing too much, but like you have to create a balance between two competing factors.

01;14;30;16 - 01;14;50;17

Speaker 4

Like usually like a lot of times there's not a solid single, this is the this is the, this has all the pros and the cons. you have to find that balance that, that between those factors. And we see a lot of that in these arguments. But we're going to go into that more, more in more depth.

01;14;50;19 - 01;15;14;28

Speaker 4

And you mentioned the fossil record. We're also going to talk about that in the future. so yeah, there's there's quite a few things that they would say, you know, I think the real question is like, and I know I've said this before, like, you can have plausible explanations, but isn't there evidence for them? and I think that's kind of what it comes down to.

01;15;14;28 - 01;15;45;05

Speaker 4

They have a lot of plausible explanations, but no direct evidence to back up those explanations. at least not currently. They're they're trying, and maybe they'll find answers for some of it. But, you know, until, Until they can, have answers for all of it. Like it? There's. Oh, even if they had answers for all, it doesn't mean they it wasn't designed, for those purposes.

01;15;45;05 - 01;15;54;25

Speaker 4

So, yeah, we'll be talking about that in more detail. Any other thoughts as we close up?

01;15;54;27 - 01;15;57;02

Speaker 1

No. Great.

March 2nd, 2024 - Design in Multicellular Organisms

How Can Evolution Explain Life's Complexity?

Evolutionists claim to understand how life could have evolved from a simple single cell to the diversity we see today. Yet, the complexity found in multicellular organisms is hard to explain through the theory of evolution.

This podcast explores the difficulties of how evolution could explain the following:

• Cellular Specialization: How do cells evolve to differentiate into specialized tissues, such as those found in skin, muscles, and our nervous system?

• The Interdependence of Systems: How do vital systems like the nervous, circulatory, or respiratory systems gradually evolve along with the organs that rely on them?

• Top-Down Design: Life seems to be engineered from the top down – body plans first, then organs, tissues, and finally, the cells themselves. This is more in line with intelligent design than random mutations.

Can Darwin's theory of evolution account for life's amazing complexity?

Join us as we examine the challenges evolution faces when attempting to explain the origins of multicellular life.

Transcription:

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;12

Jake

the past three months, we've been.

00;00;05;19 - 00;00;07;12

Speaker 5

Very good. I know. I finally.

00;00;07;12 - 00;00;50;21

Jake

Got it. Finally. Didn't say. A week past three months, we've been examining and investigating the cellular components, like the proteins, the molecular machines, and the difficulties in evolution, explaining how they came about. So this month, we are expanding that further and saying, okay, what does that mean for multi cellular organisms? So there's a lot of complexity in the cell, but there's additional layers of complexity in multicellular organisms.

00;00;50;23 - 00;01;03;26

Jake

And the question and the big idea is can Darwin's evolution account for the origins of the complexity we find in multicellular organisms?

00;01;04;01 - 00;01;06;04

Speaker 1

Yes.

00;01;06;06 - 00;01;08;23

Speaker 5

All right, let's go through.

00;01;08;25 - 00;01;18;20

Jake

That. That is the mainstream and science view that yeah, that that's how that comes about.

00;01;18;22 - 00;01;47;23

Jake

So, I mean, every living thing contains DNA and that's made up of amino acids, and then those come into proteins and then we get the cell. And, you know, there's a lot of complexity there, but cells aren't generic. We talked about how in Darwin today they viewed cells as like generic blobs of cytoplasm and they were just little blobs of jelly.

00;01;47;25 - 00;02;31;06

Jake

But that's not how cells actually work in they so cells specialize in our in our bodies, in plants and animals and all multicellular organisms. There are this the specializations has categories which is known as tissues, which should be a fairly familiar term. There are two main branches of life. We have animal life and then plant life at the very base of the tree and eat plants and animals.

00;02;31;06 - 00;03;04;14

Jake

Both have specific types of tissue, so plants have tissue types called ground dermal and vascular, and then animal tissue types, including us. They're they broke down in four main categories, which is epithelial connective muscle and nervous. So those are the main types of tissues found in life as we know them. Those those are just the broad categories. There's extra specialization within each of those categories.

00;03;04;16 - 00;03;30;26

Jake

Last week I also mentioned the word body plans. So that also comes into play here because, you know, so there's kind of like a a structure to life. At the very bottom. You have the amino acids and then the proteins and then the cells and then tissues, then the tissues then form organs and the organs then form your body plan.

00;03;30;26 - 00;03;59;06

Jake

So the body plan is the top of the pyramid and amino acids at the bottom. And we talked a little bit about how like body plans are hard to explain. They're at the very top level, like how do you get from amino acids to body fluids? It's a very difficult question. One of the concepts that kind of comes into play and it's an engineering concept, it's called top down design.

00;03;59;08 - 00;04;24;25

Jake

So if you're going to design something, I work in it. My, my profession is I design software, so I often have to think through what are all the functional things I need the software to do in. And then I create a plan and then you execute on that plan. I don't just think about what some random button is going to say.

00;04;24;27 - 00;04;46;04

Jake

I have to think through what the whole application is going to do and then I have to design it according to plan. So this idea of saying, okay, what is the purpose? And then like how does the you know, so in this in, in life situation, it's like you almost have to start with the body plan and then figure out the organs and then figure out the tissues.

00;04;46;10 - 00;05;10;15

Jake

So you have to go from the top of the pyramid down to the amino acids to fit in. And I think the real crux of that, it comes down to purpose, like we have arms so we can interact with the world, we have legs, we can walk around, we have connective tissue so that it holds our bodies together and gives us structure.

00;05;10;18 - 00;05;59;01

Jake

We have nervous cells so that we can communication signals can be sent throughout the body. These are all like systems that need engineering to make a body effective. And how I think the question is how do how does that happen? Like, how does that happen? Evolution through the theory of evolution. And I guess maybe I'll say like, what do you guys think is like, how do you think an evolution is would explain how that happens?

00;05;59;03 - 00;06;41;27

Speaker 4

I mean, how they would explain how you go from nothing like simple complexity to extreme complexity of a body plane, correct? Yeah. I mean, they would just say that you're tiny little blobs floating together, coming together just started determining what was most beneficial for the environment they're in. And then changing to benefit themselves the most for that situation because we would look at it and we would say, okay, we have this body plan that has a firm's a nervous system, but for what purpose?

00;06;41;29 - 00;06;54;07

Speaker 4

And for us we would say like, Well, the Lord knew we would need to be doing tons of stuff. And he had the whole complexity planned out and then worked backwards, like from the top of the pyramid down.

00;06;54;10 - 00;06;55;01

Jake

Right?

00;06;55;03 - 00;07;22;29

Speaker 4

But evolutionists would say it was the other way and somehow these non thinking nonentity things decided to come together in certain ways to start building proteins and then cells. And then it was advantageous for the wriggly fish to want to come out of the water. And so it decided to grow legs for it died and then if it died and blah, blah, blah.

00;07;23;01 - 00;07;28;26

Speaker 4

So it's a lot of chance and like theory and what ifs and maybes, I would assume.

00;07;28;28 - 00;07;57;02

Jake

Yeah. I mean, that's more or less correct. I mean, it's it's a series of small incremental changes that makes you go from something simple air quotes to something more complex. And, you know, those have to be like we've talked about in the past, beneficial changes at every step. Like if it's not allowed, if it's not beneficial, it's not going to get passed on.

00;07;57;04 - 00;08;04;14

Jake

So every step has to be a functional, beneficial step towards.

00;08;04;17 - 00;08;05;21

Speaker 4

An unknown purpose.

00;08;05;22 - 00;08;11;17

Jake

And it's just to survive and to pass on in like that. It's just this genetic self.

00;08;11;20 - 00;08;15;25

Speaker 2

Push by the environment that pretty much is what would force it to the next level.

00;08;15;29 - 00;08;46;07

Jake

Yeah, but then like how like I think the challenge is, is the specifics. So it's like that's theoretically plausible and I think that's where they come out. Like that's why it's a theory, you know, maybe that's how it happened. And then the question is, is there evidence of that? And like we've talked in the past, there's certain evidence of micro evolutionary changes on small scales, like that's what Darwin observed in the finches.

00;08;46;09 - 00;09;53;28

Jake

That's what we observe in dog breeds. Like there's there's definitely changes that happen based off of environmental conditions. The question is, does that explain all of life in all the diversity that we see in did we go from something very simple all the way to the diversity that is evident? So when you if we get back to like the tissues concept in the specimen like this, the specialization of tissues think through like how that comes about through small incremental beneficial changes like how do, how does a chance mutation evolve a cell to specialize for a specific role like, let's say, nervous system, when like the system itself it is its purpose doesn't exist yet right?

00;09;53;28 - 00;10;05;27

Jake

Right. Like a single nervous cell doesn't have a nervous system. Cell doesn't, you know, presumably have some purpose yet because it has dependencies.

00;10;06;00 - 00;10;10;16

Speaker 1

So it's like going back to the the rotary tail, whatever that.

00;10;10;17 - 00;10;12;10

Jake

We do. yeah. The Fidelman.

00;10;12;12 - 00;10;18;21

Speaker 1

Like you have these 17 parts or whatever. Did all 17 parts come at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Specific purpose.

00;10;18;21 - 00;11;14;03

Jake

Yeah. Yeah. That's advantageous. And Yeah. Beneficial and just the same. But the so you, so you have this kind of problem with tissue specimens like being specified additionally like tissues don't most of the tissues form systems like so most of our organs and and stuff is actually from the at the theory of tissue epithelium your tissue type. And so that's like our skin but it's also like what is in the lining of our gut and our stomachs and like a lot of our kind of inner organs have that sort of tissue in them.

00;11;14;29 - 00;11;31;21

Jake

But to evolve a stomach out of that specialized tissue like you also need a mouth or a throat, like to get stuff in.

00;11;31;23 - 00;11;37;08

Speaker 4

Make sure it doesn't poison it and it can break it down and use it into simple sugars and fats and proteins.

00;11;37;08 - 00;11;37;27

Speaker 5

Yeah.

00;11;37;29 - 00;11;39;06

Speaker 4

Great.

00;11;39;08 - 00;12;15;12

Jake

So like, how, you know, evolution, the theory of evolution and say, you know, we talked about this also last week, the term co-option, you know, so like, that's that's how they explain a lot of these things. It's like, okay, maybe the stomach started out as just like a cellular wall. I don't know this exact how they would explain it, but, you know, they were saying some kind of simplified purpose that then, you know, grew in complexity over time as it got more advanced.

00;12;15;12 - 00;12;37;02

Jake

And again, you know, that's plausible. It's it's improbable, but it's plausible. And, you know, I think that what one of the organs is often used in intelligent design is the eye, you know, And that has also been argued that, like it could have started out as just a photosensitive cell.

00;12;37;02 - 00;12;42;21

Speaker 4

Which they have done with the brain cells. And that popped out a little. Yeah, like eyeballs.

00;12;42;23 - 00;12;43;12

Jake

Out of weird.

00;12;43;16 - 00;12;49;04

Speaker 4

That was very strange. You can look that up. It's really Yeah. They took brain cells and allowed it to grow.

00;12;49;10 - 00;12;51;21

Speaker 5

You look it up, I know you like it.

00;12;51;23 - 00;13;13;19

Speaker 4

And the picture is very strange because you have I mean, you think it. You do. Yeah. But you think brain, you think human brain and you have, like, this little tiny petri dish of brain cells. And then they watched it over. I don't know how much time it was, but then these two little black dots started to grow on the brain cell clump.

00;13;13;22 - 00;13;33;17

Speaker 4

And then it looks like a little pancake of blueberries. but it was interesting because of like the the brain cells seemed and you can read the article, I'm sure they go into much more detail, but was interesting to see that, like, these brain cells seem to understand that they need out an ability to take in information from the outside.

00;13;33;19 - 00;13;54;09

Speaker 4

And if you're just brain cells, sure, it's like having a computer that has the ability to process information. But unless you feed information somehow, then it just sits there and does nothing. And so it grew what they are calling eyeballs to seemingly pull in outside information to do what it is supposed to do is very interesting.

00;13;54;12 - 00;13;57;07

Jake

Yeah, Yeah. So in.

00;13;57;07 - 00;13;58;07

Speaker 4

That weird.

00;13;58;09 - 00;14;24;01

Jake

The theory of evolution says that we get all of the diversity of life from these changes. What, what would it require for one species to turn into another species? Like what are the what are some of the changes that would need to occur to go from one body plant species to another?

00;14;24;04 - 00;14;25;16

Speaker 5

Full skeletal?

00;14;25;19 - 00;14;51;12

Speaker 4

Yeah. And muscular. Like what? What is it? Is it a a cell? What animal is it? the hyenas. They can eat like anything. Poison, rotting food. Their stomach is designed. The acid level in their stomach is designed to eat anything and not die. So like actual functioning of the organs, because you have fish that can breathe under water.

00;14;51;12 - 00;14;52;25

Speaker 4

And we have others that would drowned.

00;14;52;26 - 00;14;55;03

Jake

Yeah. Organ specialization, the environment.

00;14;55;03 - 00;15;06;00

Speaker 4

Yeah. Yeah. Like whole whole body plan changes because otherwise what makes it different. Yeah. There is no difference. So yeah.

00;15;06;03 - 00;15;10;18

Speaker 5

Classification appendages. Yeah. Entire lens.

00;15;10;20 - 00;15;15;09

Speaker 4

That's the ability to speak process information, speak words.

00;15;15;11 - 00;15;43;20

Jake

Yeah. I mean there's, there's so many, there's so many changes even at the macro level at the top of the body plant level. But you think of how many changes need to happen at the protein level to support that bigger level. So you end up getting an onion of problems, right? So if you if you so life in general, I can feel it's a pretend you're a biologist, you're trying to explain life.

00;15;43;26 - 00;16;13;04

Jake

That's a huge explain life. What where do you start? You know, it's a huge problem. So then you break the problem into smaller pieces. And then when you have those smaller pieces, you say, look, this could be explained by this improbable but feasible, potentially plot implausible thing. And then each level has its own highly improbable level, but maybe, maybe it could happen.

00;16;13;07 - 00;16;42;09

Jake

And then you multiply that at each of each of those levels. So like, you know, the chances of amino acids randomly coming together to create proteins and then proteins building molecular machines that support what it takes to make a cell and then a cell diversified into the right tissues that make a living and functional the viable multicellular organism.

00;16;42;12 - 00;17;14;18

Jake

And like, that's a lot of hurdles to jump. And it starts to being the question like, does that actually explain does evolution actually explain all those layers of complexity? Like when you I think what happens is the field of biology gets so it's so big because the problem is so big and they divide the problems into very small problems and they're like, okay, we've we you know, we have a theoretical framework.

00;17;14;18 - 00;17;44;15

Jake

They can explain this one tiny piece of it to some degree of acceptability. And it's like, yeah, we got that for all of these. So now like, you know, we got a theory that kind of explains how life started and continues on. But when you start to look at it a little bit more critically, you start seeing like, like this doesn't feel like a plausible explanation for the whole or we see.

00;17;44;18 - 00;18;36;17

Jake

So let's talk maybe a little bit specifically about like plants, because there's a lot of design in plants specifically, I would say the most fundamental the amazing thing about almost all plants is the fact that they do photosynthesis. So chloroplasts are the molecular machine. So a group of proteins that form a specific function is this chloroplast molecular machine in and those are found in green plants and they capture energy from the sun using the green pigmentation gold chlorophyl and during photosynthesis or chloroplasts, combine energy with water and carbon dioxide to create oxygen and sugars and through other biochemical processes.

00;18;36;17 - 00;19;01;11

Jake

This the sugars serve to feed the feed the plant and help it grow. And then minerals from the ground all coming together to, you know, make its work. And not only is that process critical for plant life, all of the other life on earth is built on top of plant life because you have.

00;19;01;13 - 00;19;03;07

Speaker 5

To serve in Genesis.

00;19;03;09 - 00;19;14;02

Jake

Yeah, Yeah. It's actually interesting, almost like, you know, Genesis started with plants, then animals. And that's exactly what we see in nature. Probably just a coincidence.

00;19;14;04 - 00;19;16;16

Speaker 5

And.

00;19;16;18 - 00;19;22;17

Jake

Yeah, like we could not exist without plants because we eat things that eat plants and we eat plants directly.

00;19;22;17 - 00;19;25;27

Speaker 5

Sometimes if we ask you.

00;19;26;00 - 00;19;28;19

Jake

You know, labor force to, you know, we do, I'll stick.

00;19;28;19 - 00;19;29;00

Speaker 1

To the white.

00;19;29;00 - 00;19;34;07

Speaker 5

Bread better.

00;19;34;10 - 00;19;46;14

Jake

So there's a dependency. And you know, you have these ecological relationships that are mutually beneficial because we give back to the plants to through manure and through.

00;19;46;16 - 00;19;46;23

Speaker 5

Our.

00;19;46;23 - 00;20;01;28

Jake

Bodies that when we die, you know, so like there's there's a seed, there is a cycle that exists between animals that is complex but well-balanced.

00;20;02;00 - 00;20;04;14

Speaker 4

It's like there's unity and design and it being.

00;20;04;19 - 00;20;06;15

Speaker 5

Just, Yeah, yeah, totally.

00;20;06;17 - 00;20;17;01

Jake

You now you even have another layer layer of complexity in design and you know, it's not just the food cycle that we depend on. Plants is also oxygen and carbon dioxide cycle.

00;20;17;03 - 00;20;17;22

Speaker 4

And moisture.

00;20;17;22 - 00;20;18;26

Jake

And moisture.

00;20;18;29 - 00;20;20;28

Speaker 1

You refer to it as the circle of life.

00;20;21;00 - 00;20;21;15

Jake

We can only.

00;20;21;15 - 00;20;22;04

Speaker 4

If you're saying.

00;20;22;04 - 00;20;23;10

Jake

Yeah, you have to see this only of.

00;20;23;13 - 00;20;28;17

Speaker 5

Things because don't some plants require.

00;20;28;24 - 00;20;30;01

Speaker 4

Like bees to.

00;20;30;05 - 00;20;33;27

Speaker 5

Pollinate each other? yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;20;34;00 - 00;21;00;12

Speaker 4

Some plants are only are pollinated by flies like not even just bees, but certain wasps and flies crazy like there's some plants. That's not a book that we were talking about earlier. The evolution of a creationist. But that book. But it's by Joe Martin. Anyway, it's an interesting book because it talks about different plants and animals, but the there are certain plants that are the exact right size for a very specific wasp.

00;21;00;17 - 00;21;19;13

Speaker 4

That is the only bug that can pollinate it. And it's like that is just wild any bigger. It would be something else and that something else wouldn't eat or wouldn't roll in the pollen that that flower needs for that pollination. It's very interesting. But going off topic very well.

00;21;19;16 - 00;21;50;09

Jake

Yeah. So you have plants play an important role in the ecology and there's a whole nother level of complexity there. But, you know, if you go back to the plant cell, like the plant cells have specialized, like they're specialized, they have cell walls that, you know, animals don't have, which gives them the rigidity and it makes them kind of more like Lego blocks than floating goofballs do.

00;21;50;13 - 00;21;50;26

Jake

But, you.

00;21;50;29 - 00;21;53;05

Speaker 5

Know.

00;21;53;07 - 00;22;22;22

Jake

And like, they give the plant a structure and, you know, you see these in, you know, grasses and annuals and it allows them to spread and grow quickly. And then you have things like trees and shrubs which require an extra layer of specialization, basically. What do you plants are strengthened by the walls of their older dead cells. So like the den cells end up being part of the structure of a tree.

00;22;22;25 - 00;22;24;10

Jake

And you know, they're.

00;22;24;12 - 00;22;25;27

Speaker 4

That the rings that we see.

00;22;25;29 - 00;22;57;04

Jake

Pretty much. Yeah, I think. I think so. I think so, yeah. So yeah like they, you know, there's, there's a living component to a tree, but there's also like it's built in the bones are almost the dead cells that are in there, which is kind of crazy, but it allows them to grow strong in tall. So the plant tissues I mentioned earlier, but we have what's called ground tissues, and that's the site where photosynthesis and for food storage happens.

00;22;57;07 - 00;23;29;23

Jake

And then dermal tissue on a plant is like the skin of the plant. And a lot of times that has like a waxy covering on it to help it protect it. But there's also a specific dermal called stomata that allows for the exchange of gases of oxygen and carbon dioxide. So like, they are, you know, they're pretty complex cellular structure just in itself because it's protecting just like a cell wall has to keep some things out.

00;23;30;00 - 00;23;55;00

Jake

Actually, everything that it lives has this requirement of keeping some things out, but letting some things in, you know, like our bodies are the same way, like we have skin to protect us, but we've got to take in nutrients and oxygen and stuff like that. So we need mechanisms to filter things out. Planes are the same way. They need to take in certain, you know, they take in carbon dioxide and expel oxygen.

00;23;55;00 - 00;24;24;11

Jake

When we do the opposite. And it's a fundamental aspect of of life. Plants also have vascular tissues made of xylem and flow them. So the xylem is what conducts water and materials from the roots upwards into the plant. And then finally, loam is the opposite, which it takes sugars and materials and down from the leaves through the rest of the plant.

00;24;24;14 - 00;24;56;08

Jake

And so that's the mean for tissue types that plants have. And I mean evolutionists are confident that they so they give us a quote in here in this book. It says evolutionists are confident, confidently assert that they know that the plant structure is involved going as far as to say and declare that there are there is there are overwhelming evidences that fall and plants evolved from primitive water to open plants.

00;24;56;10 - 00;25;34;24

Jake

However, a evolutionist, Brian Capone, admits that scientists don't fully understand how plants develop. He says how this process of cell differentiation takes place is still not precisely understood, nor is it known how tissues assume the unique pattern and character character actors eye characterization, such as the anatomy of roots, stems and leaves. There are only some of the these are only some of the many unsolved mysteries around plant development.

00;25;34;27 - 00;25;43;19

Jake

So, like, you know, on one hand you have this very confident, hey, this stuff involved and on the other hand it's like, well, we don't even really know how leaves form.

00;25;43;21 - 00;25;45;10

Speaker 5

Which we call, but we don't you know.

00;25;45;12 - 00;25;49;22

Jake

It's like there seems to be some you know.

00;25;49;24 - 00;25;50;24

Speaker 2

A lot of gaps.

00;25;50;26 - 00;25;59;27

Jake

Yeah. There's a lot of like the yeah, it's like we're confident that this has happening, but we don't really know how. And then it's like, how can you say that?

00;25;59;27 - 00;26;04;22

Speaker 4

That's what are those one things call it that plant's gross or the g.

00;26;04;24 - 00;26;05;18

Jake

O galls.

00;26;05;25 - 00;26;06;18

Speaker 5

Because it goes.

00;26;06;24 - 00;26;07;21

Jake

Something like that. Yeah.

00;26;07;27 - 00;26;11;09

Speaker 4

Like I remember reading an article about that not that long ago.

00;26;11;10 - 00;26;12;05

Jake

Yeah, it's interesting.

00;26;12;05 - 00;26;32;05

Speaker 4

Because, like, if you've ever looked at a plant and different I don't know if it's specific to certain plants or if all plants do this, but I remember reading this article specifically because it was from someone who's not creationist. They are more of a like a botanist and just talking about how confusing I think they're called galls. I think you're right.

00;26;32;06 - 00;26;38;07

Speaker 4

Yeah. But there are little tumors that grow on plants, like little bumps.

00;26;38;09 - 00;26;38;22

Speaker 5

That grow.

00;26;38;22 - 00;26;58;03

Speaker 4

On leaves. Maybe the stems. I've I've seen them on leaves. I just, you know, as part of do you know, I'm talking about they just they don't know why but the plant grows those to protect bugs. There is no benefit to the plant at all because it's a pest. You have this bug on the tree that is a pest.

00;26;58;06 - 00;27;32;15

Speaker 4

You have to look it up and get into more detail. I can't remember the specifics, but basically that's what it is, is plants grow these goals and protect these little bugs to no benefit of the plant. It's all 100% beneficial to the bug. And there's late botanists were like, We have no idea why, because there's no purpose. There doesn't seem to be a black and white thing as to why these plants have always done this for a very long time, and I'm sure someday someone will probably figure out that there's a protein or like a gas exchange, and that would be wonderful.

00;27;32;15 - 00;27;41;01

Speaker 4

But so far it it it's like the plants are like, I got you for no reason for this bug.

00;27;41;03 - 00;27;44;19

Speaker 2

But contrary to the idea that, yeah.

00;27;44;21 - 00;27;52;09

Speaker 4

Everything is for the benefit of separate beneficial. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very strange to me.

00;27;52;11 - 00;28;14;15

Jake

Yeah. So that kind of covers the plant tissues and kind of the plant lifecycle. And you can see there's a lot of complexities going in there and there's a lot of inner relation and all dependencies between systems. You know, again, like my career as a software designer, dependencies come in all the time. Like certain systems depend on other systems.

00;28;14;15 - 00;28;49;16

Jake

So you can't build a system without this fundamental layer over here first in that is all over life. And how does that incrementally happen? It's tough to explain. And in my view, evolution does not do it well. So let's let's move to animals instead of plants. And I think these tissues are probably a little bit more familiar because we're.

00;28;49;19 - 00;28;50;06

Speaker 5

Animals.

00;28;50;06 - 00;29;03;16

Jake

We're more we are built like animals and we have the same tissue types. So nervous tissue, I'm sure you guys are aware that nervous tissue is.

00;29;03;18 - 00;29;04;01

Speaker 1

80.

00;29;04;03 - 00;29;05;03

Speaker 5

Tons.

00;29;05;06 - 00;29;34;27

Jake

Does didn't get one together. it's what our our brains are made of and our spinal cords. You know, they're responsible for sending signals and processing things in our brains, which is a very whole. Another topic. But, you know, a single nerve, nerve cells called a neuron. They are, you know, they're an interesting cell in and of themselves.

00;29;34;29 - 00;30;24;29

Jake

They have dendrites and acciones. So the dendrites are like the pieces that go out in the axon is kind of like this tail like structure. And they they, they send impulses from one another. There's there's a lot that goes into those. And I don't think I'll cover all of that. But, you know, they're their biological functions like the purpose for them existing is, you know, no less than triggering a heartbeat or detecting heat and cold and processing pain and making sure that our off like our automatic systems are working.

00;30;25;02 - 00;30;27;13

Jake

Very important cell type.

00;30;27;15 - 00;30;30;15

Speaker 4

We don't notice them until they're not working.

00;30;30;17 - 00;30;59;11

Jake

Yeah, which is probably true of all of these but you know like I think you know what's interesting about nervous cells and honestly there's a place all of these tissue times but like how how, why would they exist without their function of transmitting signals? And that's a that's a head scratcher, you know, like, you know, maybe it was like, you know, like something kind of like muscle, like signal of, like twitching.

00;30;59;11 - 00;31;02;11

Jake

So you like, twitch through water or something like that.

00;31;02;13 - 00;31;42;04

Speaker 4

But you see people like that's a that's a disorder that usually isn't diagnosed until a kid is like seven or eight years old. But it's a genetic disorder where, like, pain is not like your nervous system is not functioning properly and you have these kids that don't feel pain and like nobody notices until like an arm is broken or they bite their tongue on them, like bite a chunk off their tongue, they get burnt and you recognize that these kids, it's not a fear thing because sometimes they get like, they're autistic and so they're not communicating or they have no fear.

00;31;42;12 - 00;32;16;23

Speaker 4

But it's that they don't experience pain because their nervous system is not functioning the way it's supposed to. And you look at them and you're like, Now that would be ideal. How cool would it be? Not to feel pain, not to feel broken things and things like that? And it's like, okay, so there's a living example of if you're if this nervous system just existed but didn't do what it seems to be designed to do, and their lives are not better because when you break your leg and don't know about it and then it says funny because it's not telling you that now your bone is not where it should be.

00;32;16;29 - 00;32;47;18

Speaker 4

Their limbs grow inappropriately sized or they get infections because there's a burn or a break or cut and they don't know it. And it doesn't bother them because they're nervous system and saying like, ouch, ouch, ouch, fix it. And so then like they get sick, things like that. So the fact that it functions for the entire body had to be thought through prior to did you have an example of what happens when you have it and it's not doing its purpose?

00;32;47;20 - 00;32;49;04

Speaker 4

It's not beneficial.

00;32;49;06 - 00;33;18;27

Jake

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And think about this like once a I evolved a new organ, somehow it happened. House Yeah, exactly. It's a little bit, a little bit worrisome, but it wouldn't do anything unless it was integrated through the nervous system, right? Like just because it's there, it also has to be hooked up.

00;33;18;29 - 00;33;22;08

Speaker 4

To Is it a tumor? Yeah, it out.

00;33;22;11 - 00;33;23;16

Speaker 5

That's. That has to be there.

00;33;23;18 - 00;34;07;29

Jake

Yeah. It's like putting a new engine in a car and not wiring it up. Wiring is probably more work than putting the engine in in a in a lot of cases. And the interesting thing is, is evolutionary explanations of new organs rarely, if ever, account for the neural circuitry necessary to control that. So, you know, like, how do you explain that there is no explanation, there's a pop up or no one of a wealth of a good thinker and intelligent design.

00;34;08;02 - 00;34;26;17

Jake

David Berlinski wrote this If these changes come about simultaneously, it makes no sense to talk of gradual evolution If they do not come about simultaneously. It is not clear why they should come about at all like.

00;34;26;19 - 00;34;27;07

Speaker 4

You would like.

00;34;27;07 - 00;34;28;20

Jake

David Berlinski Yeah, you would.

00;34;28;22 - 00;34;30;18

Speaker 4

You need to look him up. Yeah.

00;34;30;23 - 00;34;32;06

Speaker 5

Okay.

00;34;32;08 - 00;34;40;18

Jake

He's a mathematician and he's a he's actually he's, he's, he's a.

00;34;40;20 - 00;34;42;19

Speaker 4

He's Jewish by birth.

00;34;42;21 - 00;34;44;20

Speaker 5

And Polish. Yeah.

00;34;44;22 - 00;35;07;24

Speaker 4

But like, Like God. God is just not interesting, needed or desired by him at all. He's probably not well loved by people because he's just so intelligent and highly thought of himself. But at the same time, he would be someone that you would look at be like, well, evolution all the way, like mechanics and this and that.

00;35;07;25 - 00;35;33;19

Speaker 4

Natural processes. But his books and his discussions, it's the complete opposite. He's like, How do you not see that there's design in this designer? Who cares? But he I appreciate his perspective because he just I mean, he's rude, but he calls it for what it is regardless and doesn't acknowledge a designer in any way. It's purely right. Look at this.

00;35;33;19 - 00;35;38;01

Jake

He doesn't even acknowledge religion. Right. But he's a critic of evolution.

00;35;38;01 - 00;35;39;11

Speaker 4

Right. That's a better way to put it.

00;35;39;17 - 00;35;39;27

Jake

So.

00;35;40;02 - 00;35;49;22

Speaker 2

So he's not on either side. You're just in the middle. Yeah. There's too many gaps in their version, but the the designer is too far fetched or something.

00;35;49;22 - 00;35;59;04

Jake

Yeah. Like, I think he I think he's open to a designer, but he doesn't, he doesn't know. He basically he would I would presume he would say he just doesn't know. Yeah. And like.

00;35;59;07 - 00;36;00;12

Speaker 5

That's.

00;36;00;14 - 00;36;01;04

Jake

As far so.

00;36;01;11 - 00;36;05;13

Speaker 4

Which is valid like you can't know but like that's where faith comes in.

00;36;05;13 - 00;36;05;28

Speaker 2

He doesn't know.

00;36;05;28 - 00;36;12;27

Speaker 4

What like you can't just like, go knock on God's door. Are you God. Nice to meet you. Can I, like, get a DNA sample?

00;36;12;27 - 00;36;14;01

Speaker 5

Exactly. Yeah.

00;36;14;04 - 00;36;29;22

Jake

You know, with many with many things, including Christianity, there's a jump of faith. Yeah, like, there's this. Like what? I know, but, like, here's where I'm jumping to. Yep. In a faith aspect, yes. He's not willing to do that, but he sees that. He sees the.

00;36;29;24 - 00;36;36;22

Speaker 4

He's creeping towards the end of the like line. So maybe right before he enters eternity like I don't.

00;36;36;22 - 00;36;40;10

Jake

But he's a great thinker. He has a lot of interesting stuff.

00;36;40;12 - 00;36;43;05

Speaker 4

His interviews are fantastic.

00;36;43;08 - 00;36;50;00

Jake

What's this guy's name? David Berlinski. B e, r, l, i an s k i.

00;36;50;02 - 00;36;52;15

Speaker 4

He's very eccentric. And so when you find him, you'll.

00;36;52;15 - 00;36;55;03

Speaker 5

Know you're.

00;36;55;03 - 00;36;59;03

Speaker 1

Reading like, his little bio on his website. He uses a lot of interesting words.

00;36;59;03 - 00;36;59;20

Speaker 5

Yes, he does.

00;36;59;21 - 00;37;00;16

Speaker 1

Morass.

00;37;00;16 - 00;37;01;10

Speaker 5

Yup.

00;37;01;13 - 00;37;09;14

Speaker 4

Raconteur And he like sets with a cane. I don't think he actually said but he like has it. It also interviews. He just sits there with this cane.

00;37;09;17 - 00;37;12;28

Speaker 5

I'm like, what are you doing with that?

00;37;13;01 - 00;37;13;19

Speaker 4

he really hates.

00;37;13;20 - 00;37;19;24

Speaker 5

That's why I like a lot talks about X. Why is that? I remember that.

00;37;19;27 - 00;37;22;15

Speaker 4

Was Stephen Meyer when they had an interview. Anyway.

00;37;23;14 - 00;37;41;29

Jake

So I mean, so in the animal kingdom, an example of an interesting neurological adaptation would be echolocation in bats and in dolphins. How do you like That's a challenging thing to explain. Echolocation Yeah, Yeah.

00;37;41;29 - 00;37;42;23

Speaker 2

So Radar.

00;37;42;26 - 00;37;44;22

Jake

Yeah, both like.

00;37;44;25 - 00;37;45;01

Speaker 5

They.

00;37;45;06 - 00;37;49;23

Jake

Chirp and then they hear them, you know, that's how they navigate while flying around.

00;37;49;26 - 00;37;54;02

Speaker 4

But it's not just hearing. It's like the electronic or the.

00;37;54;03 - 00;37;55;12

Speaker 5

Yeah, they seems near.

00;37;55;15 - 00;38;01;19

Jake

The sense how far they are from things. It's, it's basically their way of seeing the world.

00;38;01;21 - 00;38;11;20

Speaker 4

Which people do. There's a blind person that I saw on a show not that long ago. He's blind and he's figured out he walks into a room and he clicks. Yeah. Do you remember seeing that?

00;38;11;25 - 00;38;12;00

Speaker 5

yeah.

00;38;12;08 - 00;38;24;11

Speaker 4

I think it was like on the History Channel million years ago. But that guy, he walked into a room and he would click, he would make clicking sounds with his tongue and his echolocation. As of human.

00;38;24;13 - 00;38;25;07

Speaker 5

Beings, he's like.

00;38;25;07 - 00;38;56;01

Jake

Daredevil kind of. Yeah, you wouldn't know. But yeah, that's kind of it. But echolocation is an interesting thing to explain evolutionary because like, you can't okay, you send a signal, then you hear it come back. You have to process what that means. And you know, bats do it in a way where they can do it fast enough and with enough accuracy where they can fly.

00;38;56;03 - 00;38;56;20

Speaker 5

Yeah.

00;38;56;23 - 00;39;30;18

Jake

Which is pretty incredible. okay. So moving on to muscle tissue. Muscle tissue is pretty self-explanatory. It's the it's the muscles. And, you know, there are multiple types of muscle tissue. There's smooth cardiac and skeletal. So smooth muscles are going to be like the ones found in your gut. And, you know, they're kind of like the ones that are used in organs to push food through fingers.

00;39;30;20 - 00;39;31;11

Jake

You know.

00;39;31;14 - 00;39;36;06

Speaker 5

You have a whole bunch of them. Just one. Yeah, have a whole bunch of.

00;39;36;08 - 00;40;06;05

Jake

So in cardiac or obviously your heart, heart muscles and then skeletal muscles are the ones you use to move around. Muscle tissue is driven by a specific well, there's many molecular machines involved in it. Myosin is probably the most important one. And it's a motor machine that pulled this off along a track. It's composed of long proteins called actin filaments.

00;40;06;10 - 00;40;06;22

Speaker 5

And.

00;40;06;24 - 00;40;37;07

Jake

To form the base of muscle contraction. So when a muscle movement happens, it requires the combined action of trillions of myosin motors. So you think, you know, you know, we move all the time like trillions of some of these molecular machines contracting at the same time just for one single muscle movement. And all of that is coordinated to to work flawlessly.

00;40;37;07 - 00;40;40;22

Jake

Yeah, really? 99.9% of the time.

00;40;40;27 - 00;40;43;00

Speaker 4

Unless you sneeze wrong on your back.

00;40;43;02 - 00;41;14;14

Jake

Yeah. Yeah, that's we have a chapter on that. do we really. Well we have a there's a chapter coming up on the idea of poor, poor design in nature. Like it's a, it's a counter argument to intelligent design like the appendix in like the, you know, the what's the term called the like useless organs, the term off the top of the head.

00;41;14;14 - 00;41;16;01

Jake

It's almost there, but it's not.

00;41;16;03 - 00;41;20;16

Speaker 4

Like your uvula is not there for the dangling things back to your throat.

00;41;20;18 - 00;41;21;26

Jake

The gag reflex.

00;41;21;26 - 00;41;24;14

Speaker 5

Well, some people know that.

00;41;24;17 - 00;41;25;24

Speaker 4

Like what? What?

00;41;25;24 - 00;41;28;14

Speaker 5

That's what's in there for.

00;41;28;16 - 00;41;31;26

Speaker 4

People going to take it out all the time seen in.

00;41;31;29 - 00;41;34;12

Speaker 5

There. I'm just saying.

00;41;34;15 - 00;41;39;25

Jake

Yeah, I did not research that ahead of time. So I can do an extreme thing.

00;41;39;27 - 00;41;40;18

Speaker 4

Like whatever.

00;41;40;19 - 00;41;43;19

Jake

Like how? I mean, those are your tonsils. So you're thinking of.

00;41;43;19 - 00;41;48;12

Speaker 5

No, no, I know it now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What does that Therefore.

00;41;48;14 - 00;41;49;14

Jake

It's a word.

00;41;49;17 - 00;41;50;22

Speaker 4

I don't believe in.

00;41;50;25 - 00;41;54;20

Jake

Almost most parts of it. I don't believe that you can look it up.

00;41;54;22 - 00;41;57;03

Speaker 5

It's that big stuff from going down.

00;41;57;06 - 00;41;59;14

Speaker 2

Down there is very bad.

00;41;59;16 - 00;42;00;21

Speaker 5

And there's no way.

00;42;00;23 - 00;42;02;26

Speaker 1

I know. I wish I could do it for my teeth without gagging.

00;42;02;28 - 00;42;04;17

Speaker 5

But.

00;42;04;20 - 00;42;14;15

Speaker 1

It made fun of all the time for me in the kitchen making breakfast. And then from the bathroom just.

00;42;14;17 - 00;42;18;04

Speaker 4

Those little areas. I'll sort swallowers.

00;42;18;06 - 00;42;18;15

Speaker 5

Until.

00;42;18;15 - 00;42;20;13

Speaker 4

You can overcome it. You were right there.

00;42;20;13 - 00;42;21;18

Speaker 5

For a.

00;42;21;21 - 00;42;26;09

Speaker 4

If it's no longer useful. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to be you.

00;42;26;11 - 00;42;27;13

Jake

You just get by with this.

00;42;27;13 - 00;42;39;06

Speaker 1

It seems to be up for debate. This article says it's to prevent food from choking you. This one says it secretes saliva to moisten your mouth. This person says it helps your speech.

00;42;39;12 - 00;42;41;01

Jake

What? It's probably all of those things.

00;42;41;04 - 00;42;46;11

Speaker 4

Probably none of those things. It's just better to grow the singing from the back of our throats to be weird.

00;42;46;19 - 00;42;50;22

Speaker 5

Maybe that's it. Do all animals have it anyway?

00;42;50;24 - 00;42;51;18

Speaker 2

We skip ahead.

00;42;51;24 - 00;42;52;23

Jake

Yeah. I don't think we.

00;42;52;23 - 00;42;54;21

Speaker 5

Have to talk about the yellow.

00;42;54;23 - 00;42;55;15

Jake

If we talk about.

00;42;55;15 - 00;42;56;06

Speaker 4

The well.

00;42;56;06 - 00;42;57;02

Jake

Specifically.

00;42;57;02 - 00;42;57;20

Speaker 5

We should.

00;42;57;20 - 00;43;01;11

Jake

But I mean, it's obviously something that interests you so.

00;43;01;13 - 00;43;03;17

Speaker 5

We can in humans. Is it.

00;43;03;20 - 00;43;05;08

Speaker 4

See, it's not it's.

00;43;05;09 - 00;43;09;06

Speaker 1

According to the Sage Pub Journal Scone. Yeah.

00;43;09;09 - 00;43;47;15

Jake

Wikipedia is an example of maybe an extreme muscular animal. Might not be what you would expect, but hummingbirds are extremely impressive. Inefficient creatures like their bone structure is super powerful and muscular, so that allows their wings to beat up to 70 to 75 times per second or higher. That's what the humming sound comes from. Their metabolism is on like overdrive, meaning they end up having to eat over their body weight every day.

00;43;47;18 - 00;44;08;19

Jake

In a world that was in that in here. But yeah, they have to eat a lot. They're also extremely like their flying ability is out now. Like our most advanced helicopters and planes have nothing on Hummingbird. They can hover upside down.

00;44;08;21 - 00;44;18;26

Speaker 4

It's crazy. It it's like, what's the like? Is there a lot of similarities with dragonflies and hummingbirds?

00;44;18;28 - 00;44;29;05

Jake

Probably in their maneuver ability, I would say. But like the way they accomplish it is different. Yeah, dragonflies are very efficient fliers as well, but that's because they have the quad wings.

00;44;29;08 - 00;44;31;01

Speaker 4

And if you've seen, do.

00;44;31;03 - 00;44;33;19

Jake

They have like the quad wings?

00;44;33;21 - 00;44;37;22

Speaker 5

Wings. Yes, I know you have probably I would.

00;44;37;22 - 00;44;42;00

Speaker 1

Say good argument support. That is how humans design things after animal.

00;44;42;02 - 00;44;43;01

Speaker 5

Yeah.

00;44;43;04 - 00;44;49;06

Speaker 1

We're like that's during design. A syringe. That's like a cutting. Like a mosquito. Yeah.

00;44;49;08 - 00;44;49;29

Jake

Yeah, for sure.

00;44;50;00 - 00;44;50;05

Speaker 1

Yes.

00;44;50;07 - 00;45;11;22

Jake

Puncturing or. Yeah. We look for inspiration in nature all the time. I mean, there's a whole field of bio mimicry. That's what it's called, I think biomimicry, engineering and yeah, a lot of research is done in that in like even in robotics, they're using night vision.

00;45;11;24 - 00;45;18;00

Speaker 4

Those things do these things like study things that seem that hour for night. They can. How did you get.

00;45;18;01 - 00;45;21;13

Jake

Out of sure it all with a random example I'm.

00;45;21;13 - 00;45;22;05

Speaker 4

Curious.

00;45;22;07 - 00;45;23;03

Jake

I it.

00;45;23;03 - 00;45;24;01

Speaker 1

Works in night vision.

00;45;24;01 - 00;45;30;21

Speaker 5

Goggles. Let's go next to yeah yeah.

00;45;30;21 - 00;45;41;18

Jake

Hummingbird's heartbeats. Five to 500 to 600 times a minute. We're using spin when they're like it really go anything. It can go as fast as 100 times or a thousand times per minute.

00;45;41;18 - 00;45;48;04

Speaker 5

That's insane. They call that tachycardia. You know, you need to call calm. Yeah.

00;45;48;07 - 00;46;00;15

Jake

Yeah. The amount of design in that the hummingbird is pretty amazing. And it's like a like it beats all of the things humankind has made for sure.

00;46;00;17 - 00;46;03;23

Speaker 1

Can the resting heart rate of hummingbird.

00;46;03;26 - 00;46;05;25

Speaker 4

At rest and it will die.

00;46;06;01 - 00;46;08;15

Speaker 5

In.

00;46;08;18 - 00;46;11;02

Jake

It's very restful under 50.

00;46;11;04 - 00;46;12;14

Speaker 5

GS.

00;46;12;16 - 00;46;18;04

Speaker 4

But awful. I mean, good for it. It's supposed to be that way.

00;46;18;06 - 00;46;59;04

Jake

So epithelial tissue. We talked about that a little bit. It's, you know, meant for protecting outer services of the body, keeping bacteria and other elements, harmful elements out. It's also, like I mentioned, like responsible for absorbing nutrients and key. So not only does it keep things out that it absorbs certain things in one interesting example in the animal kingdom of epithelial is actually fish, fish, lungs or fish gills.

00;46;59;06 - 00;47;17;20

Jake

They have special mechanisms. So like saltwater fish have special mechanisms to keep salt out in freshwater fish and special mechanisms to keep salt like salt in which is why you can't have Salt Lake. That's why.

00;47;17;22 - 00;47;22;10

Speaker 4

They're different that but like they have found sharks in Mississippi.

00;47;22;15 - 00;47;24;19

Jake

That's more of like they can tolerate it.

00;47;24;21 - 00;47;25;07

Speaker 4

Okay.

00;47;25;08 - 00;47;25;27

Jake

You know, because.

00;47;25;27 - 00;47;28;17

Speaker 4

I just assume they would just die. But it's a toleration level.

00;47;28;17 - 00;47;29;03

Speaker 5

Yeah.

00;47;29;05 - 00;47;54;13

Jake

It's I haven't looked into it specifically, but my guess would be that, you know, salt sharks live in the ocean in fresh water. So like they their gills are keeping salt out for the most part and they get most of the salt they need so they can like, you know, think of it as like holding their breath for sure, you know, like, yeah, something of that nature where they can go into rivers and stuff like that for quite a ways.

00;47;54;13 - 00;47;56;17

Jake

But they couldn't stay there for forever.

00;47;56;19 - 00;48;04;15

Speaker 2

I don't think so. Could it be an example of some micro evolution and if there they're, if they're constantly in the area where the what do they call them.

00;48;04;17 - 00;48;06;11

Speaker 4

Breakwater Yeah, yeah.

00;48;06;13 - 00;48;07;02

Jake

Yeah, yeah.

00;48;07;03 - 00;48;09;15

Speaker 2

Where it's kind of mixed in they.

00;48;09;20 - 00;48;11;21

Jake

They get eventually to.

00;48;11;23 - 00;48;17;10

Speaker 2

Develop. Yeah maybe are more freshwater tolerant.

00;48;17;15 - 00;48;19;00

Speaker 5

Yeah. Yeah.

00;48;19;02 - 00;48;48;19

Jake

And I think that's an interesting call because we do see micro evolution and we do see adaptations, we do see things like that in like, like I've said multiple times, it's like a lot of the theories of evolution are plausible. It's not that they're like ridiculous, like an individual theory of evolution. It's like, yeah, that's, that's plausible. I see why people, you know, hold to that.

00;48;48;22 - 00;49;28;00

Jake

But I think it's the cumulative abducting of argument of like all of these things put together makes it harder to say that it's a valid hypothesis and there's just a lot of holes in it, you know, you know, those things alone are, you know, reasons to have doubt. On the validity of the complete evolution theory. However, you know, there are you know, I would never this is a, you know, a personal opinion.

00;49;28;03 - 00;49;58;06

Jake

I would never say like, hey, let's get rid of the evolution of theory, the theory of evolution, like, I think there are uses for it, like we're learning stuff from it, like it's pushing, you know, like people are doing experiments, they're doing research. The thing that I have the biggest problem with is their dogmatic approach to it, like the fact that they're only willing to think through this one materialistic explanation.

00;49;58;08 - 00;50;12;23

Jake

Yeah, it's it's a framework for understanding how things come together, but it's not the only framework you can use. Intelligent design is a valid framework for understanding and interpreting. The evidence is.

00;50;12;25 - 00;50;16;25

Speaker 4

it seems strange because you're bringing a deity and they're like.

00;50;16;27 - 00;50;30;11

Jake

Well, and, and yeah, like, I think that's the distaste is he gets it gets wrapped up in creationism and religion and stuff like that. And they're like, that's, that's not us.

00;50;30;14 - 00;50;31;06

Speaker 4

It's not hard science.

00;50;31;07 - 00;50;56;19

Jake

Yeah, but like, you know, just seeing that there's an intelligent actor that seems to be playing a role, I mean, that doesn't require religion. I mean, you can say, Hey, aliens did it. That's an intelligent actor. I mean, it still begs the question of where they came from. But, you know, he can push that out. But like, you know, so like, it's not necessarily a religious thing.

00;50;56;19 - 00;51;37;14

Jake

I mean, it can be a scientific area of research. so yeah, continuing for the the last one, connective tissue, as you can imagine, is like cartilage bone tendons that that sort of thing. The things that build the structure of, of being animals. You know, a lot of times you can think of, well, okay, so I'll get there in a second.

00;51;37;14 - 00;52;01;22

Jake

But I mean one example they give of, you know, some extreme animal connective tissue would be in like elephants. They have obviously giant bodies that need a lot of connective tissue, but their feet have special I mean, if you look at the elephant foot, it kind of looks like fake. It just kind of looks like a nub. It's like, I don't know.

00;52;01;22 - 00;52;02;21

Jake

Will they look weird.

00;52;02;27 - 00;52;04;01

Speaker 4

From just like just.

00;52;04;01 - 00;52;08;04

Jake

From the outside? It's just like the leg and then it's, like, squared off. I don't know.

00;52;08;04 - 00;52;11;08

Speaker 5

Yeah, true. That's a Google. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;52;11;12 - 00;52;40;27

Jake

But, you know, the bottom of their foot is actually very sensitive, not like move to touch, but like their bottom of their feet are sensitive to infrasound. So elephants make infrasound. That's one of the ways they communicate. So infrasound being very low frequency sounds below human hearing and like they are able to make these sounds and the sound infrasound can travel through solid material very well and very long distances.

00;52;41;00 - 00;52;49;12

Jake

So it goes through the ground and elephants feet can pick up these infrasound that are shaking the ground.

00;52;49;14 - 00;52;51;25

Speaker 4

And they look like our feet in high heels.

00;52;51;28 - 00;52;56;29

Jake

That they do. Yeah.

00;52;57;02 - 00;53;01;14

Speaker 4

They did that. You talk if you talk when they were talking about the angle.

00;53;01;17 - 00;53;01;21

Jake

yeah.

00;53;01;22 - 00;53;28;25

Speaker 4

So then they talk about the elephant like because it's like they're so similar and like the ankle itself is so well engineered, and yet it's a little different in humans because of our ability to do that, like to run, to walk, to go from like nothing to movement. And like, I think they showed a picture of an elephant's foot because like, is that a person and a giant boot like x ray wise?

00;53;28;25 - 00;53;51;23

Speaker 4

And they're like, right, it's an elephant's foot because that, that design that engineer of an ankle is just so pristine that it translates amongst a lot of mammals. But ours is different because of our upright ability to walk runs, get all of that. So ours is just a touch different with our muscles. Yeah. Connective tissue.

00;53;51;25 - 00;53;52;12

Speaker 5

Anyway.

00;53;52;14 - 00;54;39;02

Jake

So talking about all these tissue types and how bodies come together for multicellular organisms, we can draw some analogies, right? So we, we as humans, we engineer things, we design things, we build things, and a lot of the core tissue types have corresponding analogies to the things that we build, right? So if you dig a car, for example, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, but like a car's nervous system is like all the wiring from the battery to the alternator, the spark plugs, the computer chips, like that's very similar to our our nervous system.

00;54;39;04 - 00;55;11;27

Jake

Muscular tissue might be compared to the engine, the belts, the driveshaft, all of those that make movement, the ethereal might be epithelium, might be more of like the the paint and wax on the on the outside of the car And obviously the the frame and the structure would be the connective tissues. So there's like these parallels between our engineering and what is engineered in nature.

00;55;11;29 - 00;55;18;27

Jake

We don't look at a car and think that it evolved from things, right? We assume or somebody.

00;55;18;29 - 00;55;23;10

Speaker 5

You know, I mean, you saying.

00;55;23;12 - 00;55;25;12

Jake

The design evolved? Yeah, for sure.

00;55;25;12 - 00;55;31;02

Speaker 4

Yeah. But you would never be like, you know, or somebody happened and then we got cars. Yeah, it was wild well over.

00;55;31;03 - 00;56;05;04

Jake

Like our ability to engineer evolved is really what happened. Yeah. and so, like, yeah, it's just interesting. I think I'm calling out. It's interesting that we see things that we've made and like, you know, we're a bit bias because we know we made them. But with life we said it happened some other way. Like we know like we know complex systems arise through intelligent action in life.

00;56;05;07 - 00;56;14;09

Jake

A life is a complex system even more than anything that we've done. But it happened through evolution, not through intelligent action.

00;56;14;10 - 00;56;26;29

Speaker 4

It seems almost like a prideful thing. I'm like, Well, we didn't do it, so it just happened. It's like, come on, we don't. We're like, totally take credit for it. We put people on the moon. We built a rocket ship. Amazing. Curing cancer. Not yet.

00;56;27;05 - 00;56;27;19

Speaker 1

For people.

00;56;27;19 - 00;56;28;01

Speaker 5

On the moon.

00;56;28;02 - 00;56;49;13

Speaker 4

Allegedly, or at the Hollywood studio, whatever you prefer. But then when we're like, if it if we didn't have a hand in it, us personally as the human race really happened, it probably just happened. So interesting. Yeah, we're quick to take credit for certain things and then just be like, I don't know, we didn't I don't know.

00;56;49;16 - 00;57;29;20

Jake

Screw true. Yeah, that's true. So to kind of finish out this chapter, there's one other unique area of life that's worth calling out, and that's the lifecycle of insects. It's actually pretty amazing. There are three different processes that insects use and let's see if I can see them correctly. I think probably would butcher this a metabolism human that balances on and whole low metabolism.

00;57;29;23 - 00;57;50;17

Jake

So a metabolic system is the simplest of the three. That's where you have young insects called nymphs. They're essentially have the same body plan as the adult, often emerging from the egg. The insect undergoes only changes in size but not shape as it matures. So some examples.

00;57;50;17 - 00;57;51;28

Speaker 5

You might.

00;57;52;01 - 00;57;53;12

Jake

Trying them Yeah they're they're.

00;57;53;15 - 00;57;55;20

Speaker 4

They're the way we look and then we just get bigger.

00;57;55;20 - 00;58;33;01

Jake

Yes. Yeah that's that is basically what this type of insect does get. An example would be like the silverfish bug. So the other one is Meadow he momentum he means metabolism something of that nature probably. But during that and it's it's also known as partial metamorphosis this is where the insect undergoes a gradual progressive changes in form the these insects.

00;58;33;03 - 00;59;00;12

Jake

The change is through a process of what they like in stars, which is a periods of growth of change and then molt. So, you know, it's the changes. You know, cicadas are not that because they have I believe they are full metamorphosis because they start as male maybe, I don't know. I don't know for sure and to put that up.

00;59;00;15 - 00;59;28;23

Jake

But basically with each subsequent instar and molt, the nymph gradually changes adult form until it reaches maturity and is able to breathe. Some examples are dragonflies, grasshoppers and crickets. So a complete metamorphosis. You've probably heard of metamorphosis before, you know, that's the classic caterpillar to butterfly, but that is actually the most common in in complicated form of insect maturation.

00;59;28;26 - 00;59;30;05

Speaker 4

They realize that.

00;59;30;07 - 00;59;30;26

Jake

That is the most.

00;59;30;26 - 00;59;31;18

Speaker 5

Common, I thought.

00;59;31;23 - 00;59;42;10

Speaker 4

I think I thought that it was either the first one where they're just like, tiny get back or like you said, with crickets where they're the right size, but they just, like, create the harder shell.

00;59;42;10 - 00;59;44;02

Jake

And that's interesting. Yeah, yeah.

00;59;44;03 - 00;59;45;12

Speaker 5

Most unique in that way.

00;59;45;18 - 00;59;57;02

Jake

Animals are, you know, most of them start in a larva stage, which is just an insect that is. And the from the egg to the larva, they just eat basically that's their job.

00;59;57;02 - 00;59;57;17

Speaker 5

And then very.

00;59;57;17 - 01;00;00;09

Speaker 4

Hungry caterpillar mean the bulk of you don't know.

01;00;00;12 - 01;00;03;10

Speaker 5

You.

01;00;03;13 - 01;00;30;07

Jake

When the larval growth stop slows and stops, the organism becomes the pupa. And then so the pupa stage can have various variations. You know, the most common is like the chrysalis or the cocoon of a butterfly or moth. But other insects just develop people inside the last larval skin.

01;00;30;12 - 01;00;31;10

Speaker 4

No kidding.

01;00;31;10 - 01;01;08;14

Jake

Yeah. Which I think is what the cicada does, because, like, that's the like little don't know the things if I don't know for sure, but I'm not an entomologist who so but metamorphosis occurs when the the pupa goes through a complete transformation of its body which is super crazy. So like, the whole creature liquefies into a soup to like, the whole body plant gets broken down and then form gets, gets reformed into the adult form.

01;01;08;19 - 01;01;29;29

Speaker 4

Which is wild because if you go to basic evolution, what do they say? We crawled out of primordial. It was okay, but you have this designed worm that then does that and turns into something totally different. But people totally put together like they turn into primordial soup in their little pocket and.

01;01;29;29 - 01;01;38;06

Jake

Then the whole body breaks down. Yeah. Turns into mush, and then reforms into the beautiful butterfly.

01;01;38;09 - 01;01;39;26

Speaker 4

Transformation.

01;01;39;28 - 01;02;11;20

Jake

That's the hardest. So we think about this in terms of evolution. How does a creature evolve a lifecycle like that? Yeah, because the, the larval stage has no ability to breed. Only the adults finished after after metamorphosis. Like that's the only time they breed. So like, they're like, how do you get there? Like, how do you get to that that stage.

01;02;11;20 - 01;02;43;21

Jake

That's a very difficult thing to understand in terms of, you know, Lynch theory terms like the pupa stage is an all or nothing proposition. It must complete the process to become an adult coral, die in and never reproduce. So like the instructions for the final butterfly, if you will, has to be in place beforehand right?

01;02;43;23 - 01;02;49;17

Speaker 4

That's crazy. That's wild. Like, that's a whole that's a whole nother level.

01;02;49;17 - 01;02;56;26

Jake

It is. It entirely is. The organism could not survive a complete metamorphosis unless the entire process was fully programed from the beginning.

01;02;56;26 - 01;03;18;21

Speaker 4

Right. Because the assumption is when they're in that larva stage, like the caterpillar, and they're eating and eating and eating and eating because they're basically going into a wild hibernation, like the amount of calories and the amount of energy that it must take to liquefy and then turn back into something completely different has to be outrageously high.

01;03;18;24 - 01;03;19;21

Jake

Yeah.

01;03;19;23 - 01;03;33;08

Speaker 4

And so the preparation that in one stage of development, in order to get to that completely different like you're going from like worm to bird. Yeah, like not quite but.

01;03;33;11 - 01;03;40;18

Jake

Yeah, such like these large is, it's a large jump in complexity. Yeah. And it requires forethought and planning.

01;03;40;19 - 01;03;44;05

Speaker 4

Like an inchworm to an eagle. With what in the world. That's wild.

01;03;44;07 - 01;03;59;00

Jake

Yeah. Yeah. One evolutionary entomologist said the biggest head scratcher in evolutionary biology has to be the origin of metamorphosis and insect larva like.

01;03;59;03 - 01;03;59;26

Speaker 5

There's a book about.

01;03;59;26 - 01;04;08;26

Speaker 4

That. There's a short story, an old short story called Metamorphosis, where a guy turns into a beetle in his room to read it. Right. It's a great short story, but that's what happens.

01;04;08;27 - 01;04;12;09

Jake

So that would be all to watch the fly.

01;04;12;12 - 01;04;13;07

Speaker 5

All the same.

01;04;13;09 - 01;04;15;24

Speaker 4

So it's a great short story.

01;04;15;27 - 01;04;52;02

Jake

But, you know, I mean, think about now applying the theory of intelligent design to this problem, and it's not hard to explain it. All right. An intelligent actor programed to behave like how that happens. It's not a it's not a hard thing to explain in that point. You know, I think the counter to that be me. Like, well, that's not a satisfying answer to that, you know, And I think that might be what it comes down to a lot of from an evolutionary thing is like, I want to know how it works.

01;04;52;04 - 01;04;57;03

Jake

And just to say either an intelligent designer did it.

01;04;57;06 - 01;05;08;04

Speaker 4

But you don't even have to do that. You can you can say an intelligent designer did it and you can dive deep and watch the process to see exactly how he did it, as opposed to just like.

01;05;08;07 - 01;05;15;03

Jake

Yeah, no, I think that's a good call out. Like just because someone just because humans designed a car can learn how a car.

01;05;15;03 - 01;05;34;19

Speaker 4

Works, right? Like some people are completely like you. When you were a kid, you were completely fascinated by like how computer works and tearing it apart and putting it back together. And that was something that another person put together over a lot of people over time to perfect it. And you would think that wouldn't be very interesting from a human discovery perspective.

01;05;34;25 - 01;06;00;08

Speaker 4

But it is, and there's nothing less amazing about it. And for whatever reason, instead of being like, somebody made this, I don't care who you want to call the deity at this point, but why wouldn't you want to dive in and figure out how they went about doing it, as opposed to just saying it just happened? Don't ask questions that seem so counterintuitive of just how the human condition seems to be, which is we're curious.

01;06;00;08 - 01;06;15;12

Speaker 4

We want to know why something does what it does and who did it. And like archeology, who did this, Why did they do it? How long ago did they do it? Let's figure all that out. And nature says that about the thing that put it together. And yet we're like, we're not interested. Yeah, it's so strange.

01;06;15;14 - 01;06;53;02

Jake

Yeah, it and again, I think that gets back to like, my biggest criticism is like intelligent design is a theory. Yeah. Like, and it might even be the right one. So if we are not exploring it, then we are stifling science in some way, right? Like if, if we are just going down the wrong road and no one is even considering what could be down this intelligent design road because they're just saying no, that's just creationism and religious people trying to figure things out.

01;06;53;05 - 01;07;17;27

Jake

That's how are you going to interpret the reality the right way? You can't you can't. You have to start making systems up and you have to start making these plausible. It could have happened this way. Arguments And while that could be true, it's it's unfortunate to just say no, it's it's fundamentally against the idea of science in the first place.

01;07;18;04 - 01;07;37;03

Jake

Like, what does the evidence say? Like, that's the idea. That's what that's why people get involved in science. Like, I don't want to jump to conclusions. I want to know what the evidence says. Well, what if it points in the direction you don't want it to point it? And I think that's I think that's something where you have to work through that.

01;07;37;06 - 01;08;01;00

Jake

And and in to be fair, it goes both directions where we also have to be like, well, what if I dive into something and it starts going in the direction I don't that I'm not comfortable with you, that that is uncomfortable. And we have to figure out like that's where you either just put your hands up and walk away or you're like, I want to figure this out.

01;08;01;00 - 01;08;05;25

Jake

I want to dive in deeper. I want to discover these things as much as possible.

01;08;05;27 - 01;08;11;17

Speaker 4

And I'd be lying also. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. For now or don't know ever.

01;08;11;22 - 01;08;12;06

Speaker 5

Yeah, who.

01;08;12;06 - 01;08;16;04

Speaker 4

Knows and be okay with that. Yeah because we can't know at all.

01;08;16;06 - 01;08;36;17

Speaker 2

It's kind of in our nature to have an end result from the beginning and have everything start kind of pointing towards that. So that way I it's kind of kind of in a way to glorify yourself in a way so that way we can say that I'm right. Yes, all your studies and experiments and everything points towards your original theory.

01;08;36;20 - 01;08;37;07

Speaker 5

Yeah.

01;08;37;09 - 01;08;39;00

Speaker 4

Confirmation bias. Yes.

01;08;39;07 - 01;08;46;06

Jake

Yeah. Which we're all guilty of to some level. But like, you know, that's where we have to push that boundary and.

01;08;46;08 - 01;09;01;24

Speaker 4

Let other people push it, too. Because, like, that's what I think getting around other people. Like, that's like we might not all agree on the same thing or whatever, but it's good to be like, Well, have you considered this? No. Okay, well, try it. See what.

01;09;01;27 - 01;09;15;01

Jake

I mean? It makes me wonder, like, it's kind of a ridiculous situation, but it, it makes me think because what if the science of archeology was limited by materialistic textbook explanations?

01;09;15;03 - 01;09;15;24

Speaker 5

What do you mean.

01;09;15;27 - 01;09;23;11

Jake

So archeology, you know, the digging up artifacts and like, looking at historical things.

01;09;23;11 - 01;09;23;28

Speaker 5

Yeah.

01;09;24;00 - 01;09;30;10

Jake

Like if they were limited to only naturalistic explanations, they'd have to explain why they found this.

01;09;30;12 - 01;09;31;15

Speaker 4

Like a building.

01;09;31;18 - 01;09;39;26

Jake

Yeah, this building, via naturalistic processes was like, How did this building come about? How did this foundation come about? How did this ceramic wall come about.

01;09;39;26 - 01;09;40;06

Speaker 5

Which.

01;09;40;12 - 01;09;55;08

Speaker 4

They you do a little bit when it's like this town was a myth and we found a corner of a building. It was probably natural. And then like ding, ding, ding started There's people down here. Yeah, well, it wasn't a myth. This is like an actual town, like.

01;09;55;10 - 01;10;09;06

Jake

Yeah, well, like they, they have to assume intelligent design and those things because we know that humans existed. So like, there's, like this precedent that, hey, agents, agencies existed so that we would expect to see past things from them.

01;10;09;07 - 01;10;10;22

Speaker 4

Right.

01;10;10;25 - 01;10;14;24

Jake

But that's not acceptable in any other science.

01;10;14;26 - 01;10;17;10

Speaker 4

Yeah.

01;10;17;13 - 01;10;46;28

Jake

But why? You know, like scientists themselves, many scientists believe that there are intelligences outside of Earth just by pure numbers game. So they're like, yeah, you know, there could be aliens out there. The problem is, hum, well, there's extra agencies like agency exists, we know it does. We are agents and we design things and we see things that seem to be designed, yet we're ruling out the explanation of design as a potential.

01;10;47;01 - 01;10;48;29

Speaker 4

It seems like unnecessary foolishness.

01;10;48;29 - 01;10;50;22

Jake

It probably does.

01;10;51;00 - 01;10;56;00

Speaker 4

With with zero religion built in. Yeah it just seems like unnecessary force.

01;10;56;04 - 01;11;12;02

Jake

And ultimately science suffers as a result because like when you shut down a road of explanation now now think now scientists is stifled. You think about some of the biggest breakthroughs in science. It was from radical thinkers who were thinking differently about the problem.

01;11;12;02 - 01;11;12;20

Speaker 5

Yeah.

01;11;12;22 - 01;11;20;26

Jake

It wasn't from people that were thinking about it like everyone else. It was from people who were like, What if it wasn't like any of that thing? But it was like this.

01;11;20;28 - 01;11;22;27

Speaker 4

If they put radium in their pockets.

01;11;22;29 - 01;11;56;03

Jake

that was a bad idea. But uranium. Yeah, like, you know, it's, it's, it's frustrating on some level because it's like, what are we missing out on? Because we're not even entertaining the idea that there's agency in life. Well, I mean, that wraps up this chapter. We are. So next month we are going to talk about our body specific.

01;11;56;05 - 01;12;19;26

Jake

So we brought the AI along to really talk about I more in detail in various aspects of our bodies where, you know, there's some reproduction aspects and digestion and all kinds of interesting things that are, you know, are designed to bodies. Yeah.

01;12;19;28 - 01;12;21;13

Speaker 4

So, so exciting.

01;12;21;15 - 01;12;22;27

Jake

It's actually a really interesting one.

01;12;22;27 - 01;12;24;03

Speaker 4

Yes, it is.

01;12;24;05 - 01;12;29;19

Jake

I should bring in some of the books that I have, like that one book that that guy wrote on.

01;12;29;22 - 01;12;31;15

Speaker 4

That has a son named Ransom.

01;12;31;17 - 01;12;34;18

Jake

No, that's something.

01;12;34;20 - 01;12;38;22

Speaker 4

the doctor and the engineer. Yeah. Yeah. are design bodies.

01;12;38;24 - 01;12;42;16

Jake

Yeah, that one. But there's another one thing. But. Okay, it does matter.

February 3rd, 2024 - Can We Scientifically Refute Evolution?

In this episode, we embark on a thought-provoking journey to explore the robustness of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. Delving into the intricacies of Darwin's proposition, the conversation opens with a critical question: Can Darwin's theory of evolution be scientifically refuted? This question sets the stage for a comprehensive examination of the theory's foundational elements, its historical context, and the advancements in genetics and molecular biology that have both challenged Darwin's original ideas.

Computer-generated transcript:

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;27;26

Speaker 1

so this week we're kind of building on the past few weeks again. And but we're going to focus more into the theory of evolution and talking about that. And then I think you kind of get summarized here on this page, as can Darwin's theory of evolution be scientifically refuted when we've had enough conversations where I think everyone in this room would say, Yes, but how do you articulate that?

00;00;27;26 - 00;00;47;20

Speaker 1

What are the fine points? What are the counterarguments? Those those sorts of things. But to really do that, we need to understand what the theory is at its essence. So how would you guys define the theory of evolution or Darwin's theory of evolution?

00;00;47;22 - 00;00;53;17

Speaker 2

How much was in his theory of the survival of the fittest?

00;00;53;19 - 00;00;54;23

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's like the.

00;00;54;23 - 00;01;10;10

Speaker 2

Birds that had the right beaks or the right wings or whatever is the ones that passed on the traits. And yes, wasn't he breeding pigeons or something? I don't remember me. I mean there was his finches or whatever. Right. But he also breeds something like I just keep.

00;01;10;12 - 00;01;13;28

Speaker 1

Yeah, I know what that exactly lies.

00;01;14;00 - 00;01;16;24

Speaker 2

But then there was some island with finches or something.

00;01;16;26 - 00;01;21;27

Speaker 1

We call up a goose. You know.

00;01;21;29 - 00;02;03;01

Speaker 3

well, I was just saying he's a whole lot of time to actually, when things get it just doesn't make a lot of sense because the gradual stuff, it doesn't hold water when you have when you look at everything that has to exist at the same time to even make life for yourself and random people like you say at Hogwarts discourse, where I mean, there's nothing random about the process and all you're doing is just changing words, definitions of words, and try to come up with some plausible explanation for something for a fact theory.

00;02;03;08 - 00;02;06;10

Speaker 3

Yeah, but you know, so.

00;02;06;13 - 00;02;25;27

Speaker 2

I think there's I think there's elements of truth to it. You know, like randomness, like certain traits will help you survive and those will get passed on to your children. what I'm like in there. And that's true. But like, it gets wrapped up in a bigger theory, which doesn't work. Yeah. And because it's truth mixed with fiction, it's more believable.

00;02;25;29 - 00;03;01;03

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. Usually that's described as macro versus micro evolution, right? Yeah. Micro evolution. We see all the time, right? Like bacteria adjusting to their environment or the beaks on the finches, as Darwin observed or all the varieties of dogs that are come about from selective breeding. So we have that micro aspect. But then again, like you're saying, like the macro side, it's hard to see how that comes out, how, how does those change?

00;03;01;03 - 00;03;26;09

Speaker 1

How so if you think back to the last week, we're talking a lot about DNA and genes and how they functions. And you had those letters. So Darwin's first theory didn't touch on any of that because it just wasn't known. Right. Darwin didn't know about any of that. Stuff like this cell was just it's it's cute as like this black box like in Darwin's age it's like, the cell is interesting.

00;03;26;12 - 00;03;50;20

Speaker 1

We don't really know about it. It's just kind of this little jello thing we can kind of see. But like, that was it. That was all. It was known about cells. And then when they opened this black box of the cell, they found all kinds of craziness. So in Darwin's day there was random, you know, he he coined the survival of the fittest.

00;03;50;20 - 00;04;28;24

Speaker 1

And it was all about the the changes that came about that led to greater survival. They passed on their genes and like that, that was the that was the main thrust of the argument. But then as the cell came in and we learned about DNA, Darwin's theory evolved, if you will. And in that's what's usually called neo-darwinism, which basically takes in, takes Darwin's general principles and expands them to like DNA and all that.

00;04;28;24 - 00;05;11;20

Speaker 1

So they would expand on it, saying that there is random mutations in the DNA which causes minor changes in the organism, that if leads to greater chances of survival in breeding, then you, you pass that trait on. So if you remember last week we talked about the letters of DNA and then like how those functions work. So a mutation of those those amino acid, like the, the nucleotides in the DNA, like a change in those would result in a change in a protein.

00;05;11;23 - 00;05;54;26

Speaker 1

So that is what we know, sort of like that protein changes and then that protein can come in, potentially bring up a new a new function, apparently. So like this this theory really relies on these little changes, you know, like in like how those mutations occur. Typically, you know, it could be just like in like natural cycles. It's like something shifts or like cosmic radiation, like swamps, you know, gets it damages the DNA and it makes it beneficial.

00;05;55;17 - 00;06;06;07

Speaker 2

What about what about, like, what's called, I want to say, dominant versus, like, recessive genes, right? Like we keep reading the dominant ones over and over again.

00;06;06;09 - 00;06;07;18

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, like.

00;06;07;20 - 00;06;16;12

Speaker 2

Yeah, like I say, like they say like eventually we won't have blonds anymore because it takes two people with the recessive blond gene to make a blond.

00;06;16;14 - 00;06;17;05

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;06;17;07 - 00;06;20;19

Speaker 2

So eventually there won't be any anymore. That's what I've heard.

00;06;20;22 - 00;06;46;03

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, that sounds right. Yeah, that's like the, the whole like breeding aspect does come into play and like. Well that's, that's the other component that drives evolution that's talked about, I mean survival of the fittest is part of it. But you also have the like more likely to breed aspect. That's where like evolution starts talking about like those birds with the fancy feathers like that has no survival benefit.

00;06;46;05 - 00;07;11;10

Speaker 1

But if it gets them a mate better, then they're able to pass their genes on more. And like that's, you know, it's not like, you know, you can look at blonds that kind of way, but like the fact that it's a recessive gene makes it harder to accomplish something like that. So there's a lot of nuances to what how things play out.

00;07;11;12 - 00;07;38;01

Speaker 1

But like if we go back all the way out in the DNA, a change in the DNA shouldn't like it needs to cause a change in the protein in the protein's function. And that protein function has to have some meaningful benefit to the creature. Like if it if it's neutral, there's no reason to keep that change. If it's harmful, it's going to be less likely to survive in meat.

00;07;38;03 - 00;07;48;21

Speaker 1

So only if it's beneficial and helps them survive well, will we expect that to be carried on.

00;07;48;23 - 00;08;24;17

Speaker 1

But we have these very tiny changes in we're looking for these very macro effects, right? So like there's this idea that we've kind of understand the DNA aspect and the protein aspect and like we even know like, you know, certain genetic diseases cause are caused by specific genes making it malformed proteins. But like how that extends to like body plans and like growing a whole new arm or something like that.

00;08;24;20 - 00;08;46;14

Speaker 1

Like that is something that's still under investigation in science. Like they're not sure how how that works, right? Like we know that DNA drives the protein production and then has effects on the body, but like bigger macro body plan, like certain aspects of our personality and all of that, there's still a lot of gap there.

00;08;46;16 - 00;08;55;23

Speaker 2

I assume it's also safe to argue minor changes in proteins tend to lead to catastrophic problems more than beneficial problems or beneficial attributes.

00;08;55;28 - 00;09;31;28

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. We're actually going to talk about that in detail here in a minute. But yes, that is true. Like and well, like there's actually been there's a guy he's his name is Douglas Ask AX and he's part I think he's a fellow of this Discovery Institute at least is very tightly coupled with him but he's a working scientist and he's written a couple of papers on the plausibility of, well, how likely is it that a functional protein would be created based off of the amino acids that make up proteins?

00;09;31;29 - 00;10;00;02

Speaker 1

So, you know, the amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. And then like the DNA is instructions on how to put those amino acids together to form a protein. And then that protein has to fall up all together and then do some function, you know, so he is like, how likely is it that a change in that sequence would be beneficial and create a functional, fully protein?

00;10;00;05 - 00;10;24;04

Speaker 4

And so it was the the experiment or whatever is come up where they've taking they made they can go in cats and stuff like that. Like I wonder if in that process of them doing that, do they come to the conclusion or do they see we're like, okay, we see how we did this and there's no way that this would happen.

00;10;24;07 - 00;10;50;06

Speaker 4

Like in nature, food. Yeah. So it's like, okay, so that they do not even look at that and we're like, okay, so our theories of this, you know, Squirtle turning into a giraffe or something like we just made a cat glowing by splicing this from this. And we can see through that process that that would never, ever happen like that if we hadn't intervened.

00;10;50;06 - 00;10;54;09

Speaker 4

That could not have happened. Yeah, I don't I don't know if that's.

00;10;54;15 - 00;11;22;29

Speaker 1

It's it's a good question. And I think this is my assumption based off of things I've listened to. I think most evolutionists or even, you know, most scientists, because it's the general consensus, still would say, you know, it it it we see it so it happens somehow materialistically. Like we don't really we don't know how exactly it happened, but it obviously it happened because there's the giraffe, you know, like that.

00;11;23;03 - 00;11;27;04

Speaker 1

That's kind of where they go with it. They don't even.

00;11;27;07 - 00;11;31;14

Speaker 5

Well, they have a they have the assumption that they have a billion years.

00;11;31;16 - 00;11;32;16

Speaker 4

To accomplish that.

00;11;32;22 - 00;11;35;28

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Over the course of.

00;11;35;28 - 00;11;40;28

Speaker 4

A billion years until they figure out that a billion is not enough, we'll just tack on a few more billion more.

00;11;40;28 - 00;12;08;07

Speaker 1

Zeroes along to the end of that. Right. Because the multiverse involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. No I think well you know, I think they would again argue like, well there's probably some mechanism that we haven't discovered yet. Right. Which that's plausible. You know, maybe there's some crazy event or circumstances which makes that happen really easily. We just haven't gotten there yet.

00;12;08;08 - 00;12;36;27

Speaker 1

That would be there. That would be the argument against that. So, you know, it's not it's reasonable. It's just like, is that the best explanation that we have? And I think that's what we ultimately come down to, you know, and that kind of goes to, you know, Stephen Meyers. I mean, one of his main points is like there's so much information in life that it's hard to explain with these naturalistic approaches.

00;12;36;29 - 00;13;18;25

Speaker 1

So what is the most likely explanation? Like, what do we know that creates information? People do We program, we write books, we create music, we have minds, We have reason. We take, we take noise and make something of it. Like that's the attribute of a mind. And he's like, that's that's a more natural explanation. I think that's a that's a that is a explanation that by it's the it's the it's a mechanism that we know about that does this effect why would we not consider it?

00;13;18;27 - 00;13;45;25

Speaker 1

And I think that's one of the primary. And one of the best arguments for intelligent design that I've heard is like, yeah, like you could say, yeah, there might be some mechanism out there that we don't know about, but like, that's unknown territory. That's, that's almost, you know, materialism of the gaps as they don't like materialists would say, you know, God of the gaps.

00;13;45;25 - 00;14;09;01

Speaker 1

But like really there's a materialism of the gaps where it's like, hey, there's some unknown thing that we don't know about yet. We just need to do more and then we'll figure it out eventually. Just a different name. It's just a different it's it's it's the same logical principle. And here it is like, hey, there's actually a cause of information that we know about that we see every day, and that is in mind.

00;14;09;03 - 00;14;45;00

Speaker 1

So why wouldn't we consider that is even like a possibility. And that's I think that's the biggest thing in the scientific community today that just rose me the wrong way is like, sure, I don't I'm not going to say you have to believe that it's intelligent design, but at least give it credence as a plausible theory, like when you can say, you know, there's a multiverse out there with multiple universes and like have nothing about it other than just like some equations that you've made to work to kind of make it all fit together.

00;14;45;00 - 00;15;25;21

Speaker 1

Like there's just like it just seems ludicrous that they wouldn't consider it a legitimate scientific theory because it is like it is like, why wouldn't it be? Yeah. So getting back to kind of Darwin and his evolution is can we scientifically refute it? Darwin himself wrote, If it could be demonstrated that any complex, complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.

00;15;25;23 - 00;16;00;27

Speaker 1

And that was from Darwin himself. He was like, Yeah, my theory has an Achilles heel and that Achilles heel is if they can't be, if, if a function cannot be explained by little progressive steps towards that over time, then then my, my theory breaks down. And it's even harder than that though, because if we go back to the effects of a mutation, right, so there's four effects of a mutation.

00;16;00;29 - 00;16;19;23

Speaker 1

It can be beneficial increasing the ability to survive and or reproduce it can be neutral, No change in the ability of the organism to survive or even or reproduce. It can be harmful, which decreases the ability of a survivor reproduce or deadly. It just causes death or sterility.

00;16;19;26 - 00;16;23;06

Speaker 4

What is a I mean, specifically a mutation.

00;16;23;08 - 00;16;58;23

Speaker 1

So if you think of DNA in those letters, it's a change in those letters. A random, random change. Yeah. It's. yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's no in a materialist worldview, there's no agency to plan those changes. So you're basically, you know, you have a, an organism, a frog, let's say, sitting on a rock and it's hanging out there and a cosmic ray or a piece of radiation or something hits a head some of its DNA and corrupts it in that corruption, you know, spreads.

00;16;58;23 - 00;17;09;10

Speaker 1

And then like it, it can have one of these four effects. It can be deadly or it can be harmful or it can be neutral or beneficial.

00;17;09;12 - 00;17;15;21

Speaker 2

Ah, Ginger's mutation. Let's talk about that on your podcast. You know.

00;17;15;23 - 00;17;16;16

Speaker 1

When your official.

00;17;16;16 - 00;17;18;18

Speaker 2

Opinion on gingers of mutations.

00;17;18;21 - 00;17;27;27

Speaker 1

I'm guessing that there's some sort of genetic anomaly. I don't know. Maybe it's just a genetic trait if.

00;17;27;28 - 00;17;29;09

Speaker 2

There's 1% of your audience.

00;17;29;11 - 00;18;13;03

Speaker 1

Yeah, but so we have these four effects. What and you alluded to it, the vast majority of observations we have fall into the neutral, harmful or deadly categories. Like you think about the genetic diseases that we have today or the genetic genetic disorders. There's a ton of them and all of those come back to some mutation in the DNA that causes a protein to not work as well as it should.

00;18;13;05 - 00;18;46;16

Speaker 1

We're not at all. And that causes effects. And sometimes those are annoying and sometimes those are deadly. Very rarely. Or it's there's only like a few that I would even consider neutral. Like, I don't know if you've seen like Ripley's Believe It or Not or like the shows about Huge Superhumans or whatever. Like there's a genetic disorder that makes your whole leg tendons and ligaments more flexible.

00;18;46;19 - 00;19;05;27

Speaker 1

So, like, they can like, you know, think they're the people that can, like, bend your fingers back to their arm and like they have a of water flexibility, which is kind of cool. And usually they, you know, they, in the past they would have ended up in a circus for doing all kinds of like I don't know what that's called torsion and contortionist.

00;19;05;27 - 00;19;38;27

Speaker 1

Yeah. They're like just natural, like they're genetically predisposed to be that way. But like even that is actually can be harmful because like, they're unable to resist certain things and they have to be very careful about how they move because the body has like there's limits to your body. The reason why you can't just naturally do that is because, like, that's an overextension and your your body's like, no, that's, that's that's not going to be good for you long term.

00;19;38;27 - 00;20;09;07

Speaker 1

Like that's going to happen to like contortionists and people like that. I was watching a VFX show and they talked about contortionists, doing stuff in the industry and they usually have to film it backwards. So like, you know, the zombie movies were in there like all, like messed up and they're like in a super weird position because they got hit with a baseball bat or something like they have to start in that position and then come out of it and then and then reverse it.

00;20;09;07 - 00;20;44;10

Speaker 1

Because if they try to get into a position like that, suddenly, like he can do a lot of harm, like they have to have a very controlled movement into that, into that thing just because their bodies don't have those limits to them. You know, it's kind of like the genetic disorder where you don't feel pain. Right? Like that sounds great in theory, but in reality, those people live very short, like they have shorter lifespans because they just don't know what hurts.

00;20;44;13 - 00;21;15;23

Speaker 1

So they like, you know, they'll rest their hand on the oven and not realize that their hand is burning, you know, like, that's terrible. But like, you know, they're they're just having a conversation and not realizing it. So those are like, you know, neutral to harmful categories and good to get actual beneficial changes. It takes effort. So let's go back to the protein and how it works.

00;21;15;26 - 00;21;44;20

Speaker 1

So we talked like proteins are a string of amino acids and then they fold into a three dimensional shape to get those proteins. To do that requires a very specific sequence, right? Like if you have Legos or something like that, to build a certain structure, you have to put things in the right order. So that by itself makes it difficult.

00;21;44;23 - 00;22;20;18

Speaker 1

there you are. There is also, like many, many proteins don't function independently. They actually have like a like there's protein to protein communication that happens like two proteins fit together perfectly and then like they do some function because they fit together. So that makes it even more difficult because not only do you have to make a change in the one protein, you also have to have a complementary chain change in the in the the fitting piece.

00;22;20;20 - 00;23;03;24

Speaker 1

So like how does that happen randomly? And then it gets more complex because many, many proteins end up forming molecular machinery, so they're just a cog in them, the greater machine. And you know, it has a specific role in that greater system of things. So you can see how this compounds and like Darwin, like the chance mutations can explain, like we know that radiation can damage DNA and cause mutations, but what are the chances of those actually resulting in something beneficial?

00;23;03;27 - 00;23;26;23

Speaker 1

Very, very small. And this is where we get back to the Doug works back in his studies. He was so he's a molecular biologist. I mean, he's realistically studied how rare proper folding of proteins are among protein sequences. He said, Okay, so is.

00;23;26;23 - 00;23;27;26

Speaker 4

He somebody like.

00;23;27;29 - 00;24;01;00

Speaker 1

Current from there? Yeah, he's there. Yep, yep. He's, he's a modern scientist. Today you can the Discovery Institute's YouTube channel. He has quite a bit of he has videos on there or videos related to his work. So yeah, he's a working scientist today. He, he's studied a modest protein that had a length of 150 amino acids. So that's, you know, that's like a reasonably sized protein.

00;24;01;03 - 00;24;37;03

Speaker 1

It's not exceptionally long and there's some shorter ones. It's probably on the like below average side of it. So 150 proteins in length. So that means 150 amino acids in the right sequence. What he was like, what are the odds of forming a stable, functional protein? So you're like you have all the amino acid building blocks. If you put 150 of them in there in some random order, like what are the chances that it'll be some kind of useful protein?

00;24;37;06 - 00;25;27;28

Speaker 1

So the number he came up with is between ten to a 64th and ten to the 69th. No, sorry, that was it's ten to the 74th. That's the number ten of the 74th for context, the number of atoms in the galaxy. So number of atoms in the galaxy is ten to the 64th is ten to the 69th. So the chances of a functional protein coming out of 100 with 150 amino acids in length, the odds of that forming randomly are less than odds of a blind person randomly picking a random atom in our galaxy.

00;25;28;01 - 00;26;09;21

Speaker 1

So pretty small, if not pretty much involved. It's like a needle in a haystack times a million. Like every atom in the galaxy, just the number of atoms in your body would make be impossible. So the chances are very, very small. And you can fairly confidently say that the chances of a the chances to get that from a random mutation or natural selection are impossible.

00;26;09;23 - 00;26;41;20

Speaker 1

It's just there's not enough time in the entire universe. You know, maybe if you, you know, once you get into a multiverse, potentially you have enough time, like it's an infinite scale. So, you know, everything that could happen would happen, but still, that's just for a single protein. So an example of a protein that you've probably heard of would be hemoglobin.

00;26;41;23 - 00;27;29;23

Speaker 1

So that's like the the the protein in your blood that carries oxygen throughout your body. That protein has, let's see where it lost my spot here in this. So, you know, you're getting told that protein is very specifically structured so it has four oxygen binding sites in it. And so there's been research done that basically any changes to that, that protein are fairly catastrophic.

00;27;29;23 - 00;28;13;25

Speaker 1

And there's genetic disorders around that specific protein. And, you know, most of them are deadly. But, you know, I think some potentially you can live on, but, it's very it's a very specific thing. So this kind of so this protein function and it obviously is very difficult to to get those changes. And then we talked about how like that's just for a single protein and then you scale that to protein to protein communications.

00;28;13;27 - 00;28;50;27

Speaker 1

Now you've just by a factor of who knows how much made it more complex. You know, you have to have changes that are happening on both sides and then you get to this idea that. Michael Behe and if you've heard of him, but he's one of the, I don't know, founding fathers of intelligent design, I would say, especially his book called The Black Box, Black Box, Darwin's Black Box, he coined the term irreducible complexity, which we've talked about in previous sessions.

00;28;50;27 - 00;28;59;26

Speaker 1

But like if we dive into it more, how would you guys define iridescent, irreducible complexity.

00;28;59;28 - 00;29;05;25

Speaker 2

Irreducible is so you can't reduce it.

00;29;05;27 - 00;29;06;15

Speaker 1

Right?

00;29;06;18 - 00;29;19;09

Speaker 2

So I guess the simplest form of complexity, like you can't get any less complex. Yeah. And what something is too, in order to be a thing.

00;29;19;12 - 00;29;45;22

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much that's pretty much it. One of the classic example would be a mouse trap, right? I think a classic mouse trap. You have the board, you have the spring, you have the bar, and like we have the little piece that holds the thing back. If you took one of those parts out, you would no longer have a mouse trap, right?

00;29;45;25 - 00;30;22;17

Speaker 1

You need all of those bits for it to function as a mouse trap. So that is an example of irreducible complexity. It's a system that every piece is required for it to do its function. And there are so many examples of that in biology that think it's not funny like the protein, protein communications, right? Like those are, you know, those aren't super complex, but they need those shapes like they needs those puzzle pieces have to fit together.

00;30;22;20 - 00;31;08;03

Speaker 1

But then you start talking about. So one of the classic examples in biology is the bacterial for Jelen. And so what is the bacterial in yellow? It is the tail, if you will, of a bacterium that helps it move through an environment. So it's like its fishing tail click its tail and we're talking a cell, right? So it's very small single cell argument in these, these fine gentlemen's when examined, are basically rotary engines like the, like the barrel.

00;31;08;06 - 00;31;38;29

Speaker 1

And you can see this picture here. But like it it's it's a it's a rotary engine Like it's it's a it it it has a shaft. It has a rotor. It has a U joint. It has a propeller. Like these are all things that engineers we've invented. We've reinvented this. Right. Like for our boats and for, you know, some cars have similar things in it.

00;31;39;00 - 00;32;08;13

Speaker 1

Like, like the shafts. You not like the fact that we have independently designed a similar thing that does a similar function and then we find it in a bacterium is, I don't even know how to put it to words. It's, it's kind of flabbergasting in a way. It's, it's Why would we find that? Well, it's because it's, it's like it's engineered, right?

00;32;08;13 - 00;32;40;19

Speaker 1

Like in and this is where irreducible complexity comes in. But if you were to I think it's it's down on this page. Okay. So there is some there's a there's a area of research called genetic knock out experiences. And it's basically how much genetic information can we knock out and make this thing still work. So this has been done with Vigilant and the Fajon fails to assemble or function properly.

00;32;40;19 - 00;33;05;23

Speaker 1

If any one of its approximate 1035 genes is removed. So it's an all or nothing thing. So it takes 35 genes. If you think back to a gene, a gene is a thing that codes a specific protein in the DNA. So it's it's it's you know, it's I think this is correct, but it's around 35 different proteins that are being put together to create this vision.

00;33;05;25 - 00;33;34;10

Speaker 1

And if any one of those is knocked out, the vision doesn't function. So how did that come about in a systematic, small changed way? How do you get all 35 pieces all to fit together and all be put together correctly in an in a systematic, evolutionary, explainable way?

00;33;34;13 - 00;33;46;29

Speaker 5

Darwin wasn't able to see things that Small does, but his theory no. So it doesn't even seem like it's even such a thing anymore. Especially being able to see things that we're able to see these days.

00;33;47;01 - 00;34;25;25

Speaker 4

There's a concept scalable like so. And this like micro example, yeah, I a Darwin to be able to see that but the truth of the problem, you know, maybe this particular mechanism wouldn't scale that, but you can still take that the truth of that problem looks like if any of these things had gone just the way you know that reality could be scalable to where yeah, like Darwin or we could observe that this is ridiculous to make this claim that you that this could happen this way because it's like that just doesn't it just doesn't work.

00;34;25;27 - 00;35;11;21

Speaker 1

Yeah I think I think what happens on a scale is as you get into like what Darwin could observe, there's a lot more assumptions, right. Like, so Darwin just saw cells as little goofballs and like he's like all these he observed micro evolution and he just projected that forward, which is reasonable. It's, it's not unreasonable to think that he's like, well if these birds beaks can change based off of the food that they're eating or the food supply, If you give that enough time, maybe a bird can turn into something else because, you know, if they can lead to small changes, then why couldn't only the bigger changes?

00;35;11;24 - 00;35;40;27

Speaker 1

I mean, that's reasonable. But when you start getting into so with like I think what's interesting about the for Joel is like it's something that we can see like it's it's a a much more simplified example right. Like we there might even be chapters on this in the future, but like we don't really understand how DNA affects body planes or bigger multi protein examples, right?

00;35;40;27 - 00;36;03;14

Speaker 1

We can say, okay, genes affect proteins because that's what they code for. But how do proteins tell the cells in an embryo how to form the body? Like we don't know is the answer. You know, and there's a lot of research going into that trying to figure it out. And presumably there's some explanation that we don't know about yet.

00;36;03;16 - 00;36;27;18

Speaker 4

And there are as far as the in the changes that they either kill or do nothing or, you know, all that. So it would seem like there's at least some sort of changes that are either, yeah, neutral or because otherwise we would all look the same and we you know, like if everything's put together in such a way, then everything should be the same.

00;36;27;18 - 00;36;39;06

Speaker 4

But there's apparently an obvious thing and we're all, you know, reasonably healthy and all that kind of stuff. So, so it's like there, there are and there's a ton of variation, but yeah.

00;36;39;08 - 00;37;19;08

Speaker 1

So yeah, yeah, there's, there's range in organisms, right. Like then in like different organisms have different ranges like obviously dog breeds like wolves gave us a huge variety of dogs. You know, you have to what was and was like in everything in between and then humans like it. We all are unique in some way and all have different you know so there are what seems to me like operating limits that that are that make sense and like in like how that happens is still not very well understood.

00;37;19;11 - 00;37;44;24

Speaker 1

But with this vigilantly we can see all the proteins that go into making it. We can say, okay, look, these are the genetic markers, the mark for these proteins. And if we damage one that the genome doesn't work. So it's it's a much more tangible thing than like, I turn up, it's like today in science, you can't turn off a gene that makes it so you don't grow arms, right?

00;37;44;27 - 00;38;14;07

Speaker 1

Like it's much more complicated than that. Like arms are not, there's not a protein arm correlates and and we have found you know, where there is a protein flagellum correlation that we can see. So it's like this it's like it's part of the story of life that we can see in a in a more knowledgeable way. Right. So there's less assumptions.

00;38;14;10 - 00;38;48;12

Speaker 1

And I think like the fact that that itself is so phenomenal. The things we don't understand have to just be even more so, you would presume, right? Like if we can't even explain how DNA gives us arms and legs, like it has to be something pretty advanced. You know, it's a very complicated story, whereas the film is a much more simplified organism, but it's still amazing.

00;38;48;12 - 00;39;23;16

Speaker 1

It's engineered, like speaking about the the dome. So it's a self-assembled Rotary rotary engine. The motor is driven by a flow of protons, which is pretty interesting and worth looking into. It spins in two directions or in reverse. It can change directions in a quarter, turn it operate, it operates around 18,000 rpm and can spin at 10,000 plus rpm over 30 Genes produce over 30 structural parts.

00;39;23;16 - 00;39;53;10

Speaker 1

According to one study. It might have up to 100% energy efficiency, which is something we have never come close to. So now it resembles things that we've done, but in a lot of ways it's vastly better, vastly better, which is just crazy. It's like we think we're pretty smart and we've engineered some pretty amazing things. But the tail of a bacteria is blowing out of the water.

00;39;53;10 - 00;40;18;06

Speaker 1

Our best and finest engineer, yours. I mean, that leaves you scratching your head. Okay, so Darwin's black box. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It's like the it's the book that, like, put i-D on the map and it's like a legit scientific conversation. Who wrote that microbe? Yeah.

00;40;18;09 - 00;40;25;27

Speaker 3

So did you have video of the landing somewhere? yeah, that's where I'm from. Yeah. Yeah. And that was an excellent.

00;40;26;00 - 00;40;29;29

Speaker 1

man, that's some good dozens. Some good minds all together. Yes.

00;40;30;01 - 00;40;36;19

Speaker 2

Every time you say his name, I just think of Michael Jackson.

00;40;36;21 - 00;41;09;03

Speaker 1

Well, now you won't forget. Okay, So the that will comes out. The scientific response was, you know, mostly like, wow, that's interesting. But evolution is obviously we're like now, you know, that's not they knew they needed a rebuttal. So they they went back and they basically came up with this idea of co-option. So co-option is that is evolution.

00;41;09;06 - 00;41;36;19

Speaker 1

Evolution is counterargument to irreducible complex ity. And the argument basically goes like this co-option is to take in use for another person purpose In evolutionary biology, it's highly suspect speculative mechanism where blind and unguided processes causes biological parts to be borrowed and used for other purposes. So basically the idea is this. So let's see the vagina as an example.

00;41;36;23 - 00;42;18;15

Speaker 1

There are parts of the finger and they're saying to get to that iridescent, irreducibly complex thing in a series of small changes, what could have happened is that individual parts could have been used for other things in a in a lower, with, with less complexity. So I'd say the, the shaft protein, whatever that is, it was used for some other purpose and the rotary part that was used for some other purpose.

00;42;18;17 - 00;42;30;12

Speaker 1

And so they, they have these, these simpler parts we're used to, to make other systems.

00;42;30;15 - 00;42;33;20

Speaker 6

Or.

00;42;33;23 - 00;42;52;08

Speaker 1

Excuse me they, they were used like they were used for other things and then they eventually were like, but we don't need we don't need that purpose anymore. And we're going to all kind of come together this short form, this rotary. Joan.

00;42;52;10 - 00;42;55;17

Speaker 5

They say, and randomly on their own or by an outside force.

00;42;55;19 - 00;43;00;03

Speaker 1

This would be natural processes only. So so the.

00;43;00;03 - 00;43;04;14

Speaker 2

Tail was used for something else and the engine was used somewhere else.

00;43;04;21 - 00;43;26;22

Speaker 1

Yeah. And then, like, you can have multiple steps of that, right? So like the tail could have been like a shorter version that was used to move something around inside the cell and I'm just making stuff up. But like, you know, like, it wasn't necessarily like the final part was there, but like some simpler version of that part had some other use so mashed.

00;43;26;24 - 00;43;30;12

Speaker 2

So I can take a desktop computer, rearrange the parts to make a laptop.

00;43;30;14 - 00;43;58;14

Speaker 1

Yeah, something like that. Yep, yep, yep. And, and that right there gets at one of the counter arguments to coding co-option. Right. You could put all the pieces of a desktop computer in a box and shake it and never get the laptop right, because the order in the assembly of those parts requires instructions. Where do those instructions come from?

00;43;58;17 - 00;44;21;01

Speaker 1

Like that information, Right. Like you need to know that the the hard drive plugs into the motherboard and you need it or the power supply goes to this for certain plug like you like. Those are things you need to know in order to do it. And the question is, is there a natural process that can assemble things? They work that way.

00;44;21;03 - 00;44;45;09

Speaker 1

And, you know, the the evolutionary argument was like, yeah, we had enough time and you have the right circumstances. Maybe the harddrive got plugged in and like that, that formed some kind of use for function. And so like they can kind of spin it to where it works, but like it's, it's, it's theoretical. It could work sort of situation.

00;44;45;11 - 00;44;46;13

Speaker 1

It's demonstrated to.

00;44;46;13 - 00;45;11;06

Speaker 4

Work. It's still making the question of agency though of yeah you know and then so okay so yeah you shake the box up and maybe you don't get a fully assembled computer but you do happen to get this, you know plug happened to plug into this, but then what makes nature whatever it's going to be called to say, Hey, let's keep doing that.

00;45;11;08 - 00;45;47;02

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of the way evolution theory and proponents talk about it. It sounds plausible on the surface, like, okay, yeah, sometimes. So the AI is sometimes used as a theory to do simply complex organ, for example. And like, that's been a I think it might even be in the it be his black box book as an example.

00;45;47;04 - 00;46;44;21

Speaker 1

And evolutionary biologists have come up with a pseudo plausible explanation of how that could right that the expert net explanation is some go something along the lines of somehow cell got got a mutation where it became light sensitive. So it was it wasn't like an image or anything like that. It was just sensitive to light in that cell multiplied and got hooked up to the brain so that you know something like a tardigrade or some really tiny, simple organism ism was able to say, if I move towards the light, I get a better environment.

00;46;44;24 - 00;46;49;05

Speaker 1

And like that was the foundations of the AI. And then, you know, and so.

00;46;49;08 - 00;46;55;10

Speaker 4

That was the thing able to do to decide what is it, Is it better like.

00;46;55;12 - 00;47;05;12

Speaker 1

Well if it according to evolution, it doesn't. It's just like, this is a helpful bonus now that I have as a new baby version of this.

00;47;05;12 - 00;47;09;05

Speaker 4

Yeah, but it's still like what is helpful mean and what you like.

00;47;09;11 - 00;47;15;10

Speaker 1

Yeah, well I think that goes back to it makes you survive or reproduce more.

00;47;15;13 - 00;47;16;24

Speaker 4

All right.

00;47;16;27 - 00;47;21;07

Speaker 1

Because like that helpful is defined that way. It's like, it makes by whom?

00;47;21;07 - 00;47;50;11

Speaker 4

By what and by how? Like, how how does this, you know, multi, barely multi celled organism able to even mean even without further thought. Yeah. Come to some form of conclusion to whatever level that this is what is what is helpful, what is unhelpful. Why is it you know so then maybe we're getting more into the philosophy of it.

00;47;50;14 - 00;47;51;25

Speaker 4

Yeah.

00;47;51;27 - 00;48;32;23

Speaker 1

Well I mean it's like the light receptors. So like let's say it's an algae eating bacteria and it has a light sensitive component to it. If it moves more towards light, maybe it finds more algae and then it can eat more and then produce more like that's how they would explain it. Okay. I do think there are things of what you're saying that are true, but it's it's like that's often what you find is like you can create plaza more arguments but like demonstrating those is a whole nother can of worms that we usually don't get.

00;48;32;25 - 00;49;04;08

Speaker 1

Like you see the same thing for things like how did humans first evolve the ability to communicate like language well, and they have certain things like that that they can explain or how to die or to become domesticated. Like there's evolutionary coco evolution sort of theories on that. I mean, they're very plausible, but like the mechanisms that drive them aren't clear, Li explained.

00;49;04;10 - 00;49;22;04

Speaker 1

They're just like, This is plausible. You know, like it's not is nothing scientific. And that's where I go back to, like the materialism of the gaps. Like it's like, yeah, this could kind of happen if you think about it, but we don't really show the mechanisms of it happening. So it's kind of on faith.

00;49;22;06 - 00;49;30;07

Speaker 5

So that need mind, no matter what way you look at it, you need to mind before any of this could ever possibly.

00;49;30;09 - 00;50;11;17

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. And again, we're back to that argument of like, what's the simplest explanation for what we observe? The only thing that we know that creates this kind of information is a mind. So therefore, the mind did it, you know, like that's that's a very simple argument. So all of this to be said, like we think and it's frustrating that the materialistic paradigm in science is so against these things, it just doesn't make sense.

00;50;11;17 - 00;50;44;20

Speaker 1

It's not really in the spirit of what science is, because who is to say that it's any like it's a it's a very good explanation and you don't have to subscribe to it to say it's a valid theory. But that's not that's not how it usually goes down. Usually intelligent design is like if you go to a if you look up intelligent design on Wikipedia, we describes it as a pseudo science, which is basically like, you know, it's not a grown up science.

00;50;44;22 - 00;50;50;14

Speaker 1

You know, they can, they can dabble. It's it's not really legitimate, you know, it's just pseudo science.

00;50;50;14 - 00;50;52;21

Speaker 4

Just log in and change that.

00;50;52;24 - 00;51;00;26

Speaker 1

I'm sure people have tried, but yeah, that's, that's the way it's looked at.

00;51;00;29 - 00;51;12;05

Speaker 2

Well, W.H.O. says chiropractic care is a pseudoscience. This.

00;51;12;07 - 00;51;14;22

Speaker 1

Yeah, I believe that.

00;51;14;24 - 00;51;18;24

Speaker 6

So let's go.

00;51;18;24 - 00;51;27;22

Speaker 2

Stir the pot a little bit. I don't know. I told that to my chiropractor once. He didn't care for it.

00;51;27;25 - 00;51;30;20

Speaker 1

And he's like, The joke's on you because you're paying me.

00;51;30;23 - 00;51;36;18

Speaker 6

Right before $40.

00;51;36;21 - 00;51;58;05

Speaker 1

So let's think back to the opening question. Can we scientifically review evolution and then to do that, like maybe some questions around that, more specific questions, do you think there are any explanations thus far scientifically that explains ourselves complexity sufficiently?

00;51;58;07 - 00;51;59;18

Speaker 2

You said that one more time.

00;51;59;20 - 00;52;06;20

Speaker 1

Do you think there are any explanation, scientific explanations on why cells are so complex?

00;52;06;23 - 00;52;31;09

Speaker 4

So I started off by kind of going over what this evolution. So maybe let's review design or whatever, like and you say, can we do the same? So what's meant by scientifically what's, what's the, what's the requirement to to count to count as I thought the same thing. Yeah.

00;52;31;12 - 00;52;34;29

Speaker 2

I guess the science just what you can see here and feel. So everything is science, right?

00;52;35;00 - 00;52;58;01

Speaker 4

Like I know that there is scientific method and I know that evolution is supposedly a thing like, like defining like, but, but those are words that are used so freely that and without definition that a lot of argument comes from. You know, you're using it this way and I'm using it this way, and we're both assuming that we're kind of using it in sort of the same way.

00;52;58;01 - 00;52;59;11

Speaker 2

Trust the science. Okay.

00;52;59;11 - 00;53;02;09

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's stressful science.

00;53;02;11 - 00;53;03;15

Speaker 6

know, so.

00;53;03;22 - 00;53;10;29

Speaker 4

So for the sake of maybe at least this conversation, like what's matched by scientifically can you to say what's in it for scientifically?

00;53;11;06 - 00;53;17;03

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a great, great question. How, how would you guys answer that question and.

00;53;17;06 - 00;53;24;11

Speaker 4

Google answering a question? And the question is very, very simple, very simple politician.

00;53;24;16 - 00;53;27;22

Speaker 2

You run for.

00;53;27;24 - 00;53;31;11

Speaker 1

We've moved into the discussion phase of the mystery.

00;53;31;14 - 00;53;39;09

Speaker 2

So I don't think we know or understand why or how it works completely. I think that might be what you're.

00;53;39;11 - 00;53;41;13

Speaker 1

For, the definition of science.

00;53;41;13 - 00;53;52;16

Speaker 2

And so I don't think we know with with this, you know, 100% how everything within the body works and how it works and how it came free right there. I think it's a whole theory.

00;53;52;19 - 00;54;20;13

Speaker 4

So you can so part of the thing with the scientific stuff, like where you have like so you perform an experiment well that the test of the validity of that experiment is peer review. And so can it be replicated and then produce another kind of stuff. So for the sake of so we're going to say for the sake of this conversation at least, and hope and give you hope would be more universal because isn't that supposed to be?

00;54;20;13 - 00;54;51;28

Speaker 4

The thing with science is that it's universal, even though it doesn't seem to be used that way. We can say, okay, for the sake of this conversation, scientifically, the parameters to justify it or to to count as scientific is is there a peer review, more repeatable experimental environment where we can test the parameters and and then reproduce it?

00;54;52;05 - 00;54;54;05

Speaker 4

Yes, something like that.

00;54;54;07 - 00;55;25;04

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd say you're along the right lines of thinking in like your question gets a whole, a whole box of thought, right. Like defining what science is is a very difficult thing for even scientists to do. Oftentimes you hear things about the scientific method, like what are our modes of sensory input, like our test instruments and like our physical senses.

00;55;25;06 - 00;55;51;28

Speaker 1

And it quickly comes to one of the founding principles of science is built on top of philosophy. So philosophy was kind of like the first science, if you will, like which, you know, philosophy is the art of understanding and rational, like rational thought that can we think through things? What does it mean to think at all? And what can we trust in our senses?

00;55;51;28 - 00;56;28;26

Speaker 1

Like those are classic philosophical questions and the what is science quickly gets into this big, muddy, philosophical and tangible like very interesting but hard to nail down thing. So often times you hear science is, you know, the process of the scientific method and then backed up by peer review and then you got scientific data. But that's where science stops because like, it's not like scientists say, here's my data.

00;56;28;29 - 00;56;57;03

Speaker 1

In the end, they draw conclusions from their data right like that. That's, you know, a fundamental part. It's like, we observed X, so that means why? And that's that. So means Y is where evolution fits in, right? So you go back to Darwin in the finches, he observed the finches having varying beaks based off of their food supply.

00;56;57;05 - 00;57;39;20

Speaker 1

So he concluded that environmental and survival aspects would select for specific traits, and that over significant time in which like, like that first part was observed. So I would say that lands under science, right? We have we have observed things changing to adapt to their environments. The question is, do things change to become new species? And then then that begs the question what is a species?

00;57;39;23 - 00;58;20;17

Speaker 1

But, you know, or do do birds turn into something fundamentally different? And what what does that mean? So like there's parts of evolution in Darwin's theory that I think do fall under science. I think where it gets more difficult is in that is in explaining it here, like doesn't explain everything, you know, it does it and why it's a theory at the end of the day is because it's not been proven in like science has had almost 100 years to prove evolution on a macro scale.

00;58;20;19 - 00;58;58;19

Speaker 1

And most scientists will back. This is a guess, I would say if you polled most scientists, most would say that the scientific theory of evolution is most definitely true, like almost certainly true or ever. But if you go to the data, if you start looking at the data of what there's been lots of studies around biology and like the study of life and how things evolve and like some of it is being used to, you know, understand population growth and all this kind of stuff.

00;58;58;21 - 00;59;48;13

Speaker 1

But if you look at like, have we observed things changing species? No, we haven't. We have not seen that sort of thing. And you're like, well, we just haven't had enough time. But the thing is like for bacteria, you can get hundreds of thousands of life cycles of a bacterium in, you know, a short amount of time. So like there have been studies trying to evolve bacterium to have specific traits and they've been pseudo successful in the sense that I can't the exact details of the story, the exact experiments, I'm going to kind of make it up a little bit, but it's along these lines, you know, there's been studies where they've, they've taken like

00;59;48;13 - 01;00;19;04

Speaker 1

bacterium or yeast cultures and tried to expose them to, you know, like ammonia, which should kill them. But they, you know, start out with low doses and then they kind of they build up to the yeast cultures tolerance to ammonia. Then they're like, hey, look, this is evolution or is it adaptation to their environment? Because what they were what ended up being the results of those studies and I'd have to go look exactly what the study was.

01;00;19;04 - 01;00;59;28

Speaker 1

So don't take the specifics but like it end up turning out that, yeah, they got more adaptable and was able to live in more ammonia filled environments, but at the cost of, you know, some specific other aspect of it. So it wasn't straight up beneficial change, it was at the cost of some other change. So like there's another more recent book by BP and I'm blanking on the name, maybe it'll come to me before we end, but he talks about this idea and this is what I subscribe to.

01;01;00;02 - 01;01;29;05

Speaker 1

This is a little bit of a tangent, but within a species or, you know, let's use the biblical term because I think it's even more helpful here within a kind. There is a certain range of adapt adaptability in that kind, and we see that in his in this book he gives an example, and I may have mentioned this before in other classes, but he gives the example of polar bears.

01;01;29;08 - 01;02;03;16

Speaker 1

So polar bears are, you know, very similar to black bears, and they have some specific mutations that make them more adaptable to cold environments. In their very specific adaptation. There are actually very specific genetic changes, like one of which makes the bear able to digest fat better because, you know, like a polar bears diet is like seals, which are like all fat here's like fat balls.

01;02;03;18 - 01;02;04;25

Speaker 1

So identify with that.

01;02;04;26 - 01;02;11;14

Speaker 6

Yeah, I make t shirts is like.

01;02;11;17 - 01;02;40;07

Speaker 1

so the American can digest and use more of that fat. You know, another one is like around their fur and their coats. They have special adaptations. I think like their their hair is hollow. So it's more insulators. And like those are specific changes and like, we can trace those down from, you know, the bear kind and we can see that that polar bears been adapted to these cool environments.

01;02;40;09 - 01;03;32;12

Speaker 1

The thing is, is the, the, the changes that resulted in the polar bear, although the changes were beneficial for the creature to live in an environment, they were ultimately destructive in nature. So the the proteins that were changed performed worse, like they were like handicapped in a sense to resolve it in these adaptations that were beneficial. So like, it's this weird combination of like specification in like you have this kind with all this potential and then the kind gets put in specific environments in it in a in it like shrinks its potential and then it gets more specified and shrinks in potential.

01;03;32;14 - 01;03;55;15

Speaker 1

You can see a similar thing in in domesticated dogs, right. Like you have a wolf and it has this certain wide range of adaptability weighing huge differences in size and stuff like that. But when you get a Chihuahua, you can't go from a Chihuahua back to a wolf, Right? It's one directional and that's because it's corruptive in nature.

01;03;55;18 - 01;04;23;20

Speaker 1

But it's it's to its to specify for a environment then adapt to an environment. So this is the kind of view that he paints in this book. So like the that there are aspects of evolution in that that are true. Right things adapt to their environment and survival of the fittest applies like you get a polar bear that was slightly better at digesting fat, lived a bit more and was able to reproduce more.

01;04;23;20 - 01;04;54;03

Speaker 1

So then that gene got carried off. And now you went from a black bear to a polar bear. And the thing that's harder to explain is kind of kind jobs like that is something we have not observed in scientific data. So getting back to the original question of like, can science explain these things, I would say it can explain some things, but not everything.

01;04;54;07 - 01;05;22;18

Speaker 1

And then, like scientists use theories and I'm going to use materialism of the gaps to say, you know, it's plausible. It goes back to their fundamental worldview. And this is also getting back to philosophy like a materialism tenet that that everything like there's this idea in the scientific community that if you can't explain it materialistically, it's not science.

01;05;22;21 - 01;05;44;23

Speaker 1

But is that attitude that this should be part of how we define science? I think I think that's the root of the intelligent design and science rift or even, you know, religious and science rift. You know, scientists are like, no, we can only stay within this materialistic worldview existing. That's what we can test. That's what we can observe.

01;05;44;23 - 01;05;52;19

Speaker 1

And I think there's some argument there. But was science often crosses the line into philosophy.

01;05;52;22 - 01;06;25;01

Speaker 4

And so yeah from the science of materials. Yeah. But like, is it the only thing you can test because scripture tells us to test the spirits tells us to, you know, test against, you know. So there's, so it's like there's this explicit ending that's been fabricated between the material and the, and the spiritual and the even though that doesn't really exist, like, like we, we live in a in a material and spiritual world.

01;06;25;04 - 01;06;54;02

Speaker 4

And so yeah, there's there seems to be there's, there's separation. But at the same time they're, they're, they're, they're not you. Yeah. I don't know that we have the capacity like, I don't know I, we can, we can experience some aspect of the, I mean the spiritual certainly seems to be more limited in our experience or understanding to the, to the physical, but at least at this point.

01;06;54;08 - 01;06;59;13

Speaker 4

And then, you know, and then you have the new Earth, they will be able to understand both perfectly whatever that's going on.

01;06;59;19 - 01;07;27;26

Speaker 1

That's, you know, yeah, I think that's another good philosophical question because it comes down to what can we measure and observe, right? So I think we can kind of like, like we feel the spirit working, but how do you tangibly measure or describe that in some way? Like it? That's where it eludes science, right? Like you can't nail it down.

01;07;27;29 - 01;07;49;05

Speaker 1

Like we don't have like a spiritual radar, right? Like it's, it's, it's much more it's, it's at least from my perspective, it's a much more different thing. If you said like it's just it's like it's this other realm, if you will, that we don't have instruments to detect.

01;07;49;08 - 01;07;50;16

Speaker 4

Also like an unseen.

01;07;50;18 - 01;07;53;13

Speaker 1

It is like that.

01;07;53;15 - 01;07;55;19

Speaker 6

Voice.

01;07;55;21 - 01;07;57;00

Speaker 4

Which you probably hear more about that.

01;07;57;00 - 01;08;26;09

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like I think if, you know, if someone invented a unseen realm detector of some kind, would would the scientific community then more openly adopt that realm? It's like, yeah, now we can measure it now. Like now it even like becomes material like right. That's the definition of material is something we can experience directly in foundationally.

01;08;26;11 - 01;09;00;09

Speaker 1

So then is it even really, you know, is it, is it even spiritual anymore? You know, like I think like there's this there's this purposeful separation between and this is philosophy is purposeful separation between material. What we experience in this realm that we are in and this thing that we vaguely have intuition about, that we just can't, you know, it's what theology has been after since the start of mankind that we have in our souls to some degree.

01;09;00;11 - 01;09;03;04

Speaker 4

It's almost like someone put eternity in our hearts.

01;09;03;05 - 01;09;05;08

Speaker 6

Yeah, Yeah.

01;09;05;10 - 01;09;06;18

Speaker 1

It is like that.

01;09;06;21 - 01;09;26;27

Speaker 4

Wasn't it? So it wasn't the way back in the day. That philosophy is the mother of science and theology is her husband. It wasn't that long ago when philosophy and theology were. Yeah, like there all that sort of like in the, at the collegiate level and everything that Yeah.

01;09;26;29 - 01;09;29;15

Speaker 1

That, that's how university started right there.

01;09;29;16 - 01;09;36;16

Speaker 4

It was just like, well yeah of course we're going to have philosophy and theology together. Yeah, they're different, but yet they're inseparable.

01;09;36;19 - 01;10;00;08

Speaker 1

Yeah. And even science was in that like, right, Like that was all the same thing, you know? And, and it's, it's split into that. I think that's where scientists become uncomfortable because they have had they have ignored that side of the realm. They're like, we can't measure that. We can't do anything with that, but we can do something with this.

01;10;00;10 - 01;10;13;28

Speaker 1

And so they form their theories based off of these assumptions that that other side doesn't exist. So you have to come up with things that materialism of the gaps because how how else do you explain it?

01;10;14;00 - 01;10;33;27

Speaker 2

It reminds me of the story of the guy who whatever long ago he figured out that doctors that were washing their hands were killing their patients as much. So he's like, there's something like invisible, you know, that's killing these patients and you need to wash your hands. And everybody thought he was insane. I think they could see how they could measure it.

01;10;34;03 - 01;11;10;10

Speaker 1

If Chelsea was here, she would know exactly. I think it might have been John Glenn, Lester, like Listerine guy. It might be that guy. At least I know. So the Listerine guy, like the company massaging Listerine, like the guy who started it was fundamentally like he was at the heart of germ theory and like, understanding that, so we created a huge mouthwash business and also, you know, save billions of people with one understanding germ theory that was still here because you'd be able to go on it, conceive of that stuff.

01;11;10;10 - 01;11;41;11

Speaker 1

But, you know, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's all irreducibly complex. Systems require a lot of components to be in place at the same time, in the same order to function. And we talked about this a little bit, but like how does like I think irreducibly complex, like the idea of irreducibly complexity makes sense to people. Like we have even this, you know, microphone sitting on the table.

01;11;41;13 - 01;12;12;09

Speaker 1

I can only take a certain percentage of the parts off of this before it would like. There's a point where it's functioning and then not like there's not like this gradual decrease in functionality. As I take parts off of it, like it's on or off. And I'd like there is some amount of critical components which makes that make this thing so it's the least amount of components and it's still functioning.

01;12;12;11 - 01;12;36;25

Speaker 1

And that's the idea of here is, you know, more complexity. And we talked about co-option being a counterargument, like how does that rate as an argument in your ass as mine after talking about it, like the idea that these parts for this microphone could have been used for, you know, this chair and then, you know, they got repurposed into microphone.

01;12;36;27 - 01;13;03;25

Speaker 3

I would go back with I heard the argument with the baby and when and Maya and lyrics when they were talking about we would go back to the actual mousetrap because like the word that holds down the trap, you can't actually replace out the handwork and think it's going to work. But Parts have to fit. Exactly. Yeah. So that's what boils down to irreducible complexity.

01;13;03;28 - 01;13;09;12

Speaker 3

You Get parts that look like a bit of that, but they don't fit. It's not going to work.

01;13;09;14 - 01;13;38;16

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have that, that aspect of it. And then you have the whole like the assembly instructions. Where do they come from? You know, I think those are two really strong arguments against co-option that. Science really doesn't have an explanation for it because like you, like, like I said, the idea of co-option I'm pretty sure was a result of Behe is book on Darwin's black box.

01;13;38;16 - 01;14;06;03

Speaker 1

And this idea of irreducible complexity and evolution is like, Well, that's a pretty good argument. We should probably come up with a counter argument for that. And they came up with irreducible or co-option and it's, it's a plausible argument. It's just not demonstrated in scientifically. Like, I think, you know, I think they're working on it and there might be studies out there that show like some some forms of co-option kind of in play.

01;14;06;03 - 01;14;40;25

Speaker 1

I think I've seen some of that, but it's very or is not very solid. I say, you know, there might be aspects of it that are true, like evolution, but like, does it explain all of the nuances of it? Like the bacterial flagellum that we talked about and how it comes together seems unlikely that like those parts were in useful because like, that's the thing with evolution is it's a bunch of small steps towards a change.

01;14;40;27 - 01;15;11;04

Speaker 1

But every step has to be functional and beneficial for it to pass on to the next stage. And you need many, many, many many, many changes to do anything meaningful. And they all have to be in the beneficial range. It's like kind of like flipping a quarter or maybe it's like rolling a 100 faced dice a million times and needing the same number to come up.

01;15;11;07 - 01;15;36;22

Speaker 1

Like it's just not it doesn't make sense because every single time you roll the dice and you need it to be that number and if not, it's detrimental and you dropping what? You're not going to have very many organisms surviving. If that was the case. And that's just one change in like the number of changes needed are astronomical.

01;15;36;29 - 01;16;05;21

Speaker 1

Like so many, so many. And like we and like we mentioned earlier, we don't even really understand like we understand the, the sum of the parts on the the DNA protein protein machines, molecular machines that that we understand kind of how that works. Not super well, but kind of but then like how does that translate to macro organisms.

01;16;05;23 - 01;16;30;29

Speaker 1

We have no idea. Like, like it just doesn't I what I think is interesting is the whole body plan idea. Like where does that come from? Like, how does that work? Which like science doesn't know, like because the DNA seems to code for proteins, not body plans. You know, it's just building proteins. How does it know to put my liver where it needs to be?

01;16;31;01 - 01;17;07;24

Speaker 1

How does it know that all my arteries need to hook up just right? There is no explanation for that. And like, that's even outside of any of this. And that's just a whole nother problem that we are just clueless on. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty fascinating. As we close up, any other thoughts or questions come to mind? All right.

01;17;07;26 - 01;17;35;16

Speaker 1

Well, let me close this up on prayer and we'll call it a morning. But I just want to thank you for this discussion. Thank you for your amazing creation and the engineering that went into it. We still, you know, as we learn more and discover more and we see the just amazing engineering that goes into something as simple as a bacteria's tail and it's all inspiring.

01;17;35;19 - 01;17;59;28

Speaker 1

We think we are so smart, you know, that we have built all these amazing things, which is true. But when we compare them to life, which is your they pale in comparison to other. And we just thank you for those signs of your fingerprints in nature. And we stand in honor of you and your glory. And thank you for all that you've done.

01;18;00;03 - 01;18;10;23

Speaker 1

Just pray that you would bless the rest of the day and this weekend. And thank you in new name, in the name of.

January 6th, 2024 - The Information Found In Life

Deep dive into the intricate code of DNA - a blueprint of life containing complex and specified information. Join us as we explore Intelligent Design and its compelling arguments. We'll also examine the RNA World Hypothesis, its limitations, and how it leaves the origin of life a fascinating mystery. Are we the product of chance or intelligent artistry? Tune in and prepare to have your mind stretched!

Auto-Generated Transcript:
Alright, so this week is A bit of a heavier, I don't know if heavy is the right word. Technical. Technical, yeah. We're talking about information, and specifically DNA, and like, how that comes about, so. it's it's an interesting topic. I guess maybe we can start on like, what do you guys know about information, DNA, how it works, what are your impressions of it, coming into it as someone blind?

Simple. It's four things. Super easy. What four things, John? Adena, Adenosine, Taurines. Site, site US something and Guine Aty Center. That's how my middle school at Grundy Center. That's how we remembered it. Aty Center? Yeah, at Grundy Center. At gr. I went to school at Grundy Center. So the teacher's like at Grundy Center, never forget.

Never forgot. There you go. There you go. You'll never say, yeah. Grundy Center. At Grundy Center. . . So what was that again? . [00:01:00] Can you say that one more? What? What makes it beginning? So it's. A T G C. And Adenosine, thymine, guanine, silane. Right? So, yep. Yep. Those are three nucle Four. Nucleic acids is what they are.

And they make up the bonds helix. So, A and C and T bind, I think, and then A and C and G, A and C, A and T, G and Z. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, so like, they always bind with their partner, Nucleic Acid Nucleic Base, I think, Nucleotide, because of their shape, is that right? Like the way each one is shaped.

Yeah. That's how they connect. Yeah. If I remember. Like they get like puzzle pieces. Yeah, yeah. Like one is, I mean, if you go cartoon style, I suppose. Like one's rounded, and then one like kind of [00:02:00] goes in like this. And then one is like, Pointed and then it has a side that's more like it'll connect if that's actually legit.

That was middle school Yeah, yeah, they're definitely yeah, so like chemically they the the bonds only work in certain directions and they form the genetic code, which is you know, a lot of these pairs of information so Obvious, I mean, there's obvious implications there like that is it's equated to programming, right?

Like Bill Gates has said that it's like, you know, DNA is the most sophisticated form of like programming language that we've seen. It, it, it's often Francis Crick, I don't know, or not Francis Crick. Francis Collin, who was in the, he was the head of the World Health Organization. He was part of the human genome project that mapped the whole genome of the, of a human.

[00:03:00] He's actually a Christian, but he he wrote a book called The Language of God which he talks about, like, how DNA and that information is, is, it's hard to explain those things. Like, how did that information get there? There's no No process or explanation for why these chemicals, one, came to form DNA, and then how, even if, like, there is infinitely more ways to combine these things that are just random noise.

So like, how did that information get there? Like that's the heart of the question or the heart of the problem. anD you know, the secular scientists have various explanations for it. One of which we'll talk about a little bit more detail, which is the RNA world hypothesis. But let's back up a little bit.[00:04:00]

So DNA. We have also heard of, like, a gene. Does anyone, like, know what a gene is, or the definition of a gene? I mean, we all hear that word, right? Gene is like But, like, what, like, what do we mean when we say gene? Do genes go with chromosomes? I mean, do they put those two together? Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, chromosomes contain genes.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But basically a gene is a unit of heredity, typically understood as a section of DNA that contains the instructions for a particular protein. So it's basically so if, if DNA is a cookbook. A gene is a recipe for a specific protein in most cases. So you got the whole DNA strand which has all of these recipes in it for these various proteins.

And those are used to, to form the proteins which then create the molecular machines that run our cells and all of that kind of stuff we talked about last [00:05:00] week. Last time? Yeah. I know. Last month. Just kidding. Haha. Haha. Haha. Yeah, so that's what a gene is. It's just that, that chunk that describes a, a protein you can also think of, like, there's another analogy in here where, like a hard drive is equated to a DNA molecule.

The software is the genetic information. That's the, the, the A TGC information or the code. And then the hardware is the molecular machines that then execute the building of these proteins. That's another analogy. There's a, there's a lot of analogies out there. Like the chef cookbook recipe is one that you come across quite a bit.

Like if you were to Google it on YouTube. So. The, so the genome, as I said, the there's the genome project. The genome is just the, the full complement of genetic information that a, that an organism has. There's also something that you might not have heard of it's a little bit more in the weeds, but there's [00:06:00] something called a codon.

Codon? Codon. So that is. Only it's basically just three letters. It's the three letters it's like A T G or C A A. And what that, those codons do is they, they represent A nucleotide base or adenine. Cytosine, thymine, guanine. Like it, the code on codes for one of those like pears. One of those nucleic bases.

So one of four, no, sorry, I, that, that's wrong. Okay. A code on codes. For Amino acids, like the building blocks of proteins. Okay. So like, it's basically like, if you think of the, the amino acids as, as Legos. Every three letters in the DNA says use this Lego piece. [00:07:00] And then there are mechanisms. So the, there's, there's mechanisms called transcription and translation in DNA.

And these mechanisms basically read the DNA, read these codons. And those codons tell the responsible nanomachine, which would be a There's a couple involved in the process, but basically it's like, we need this piece. To form, this is the next piece we need to build this protein. And it's, it's an amino acid.

And it's like, okay, so you got a bunch of these. They can be like hundreds of codons long. And you, you build these proteins. Does it look like a computer within a computer? Instructions within instructions? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Cause I'm not really sure what you mean by codon either. Okay, yeah.

Even though I'm listening, I don't understand. Okay. Yeah. And I'm not an expert in this. So [00:08:00] at the basic level, a codon is just three letters that represent. So in your DNA, as you read the string, so like we just talked about the four, like that ATGC. Yeah. Okay. Is a codon related to those? Yes. So the codon, so if you read out DNA, right, if you just are like looking at DNA and it's, you got an A, you got a T, you got a.

You got a C, you got an A, you got a C, like you're reading that out as you're going down this one side of the strand. Every three You're talking about a double helix. Yes. A strand. Yes. As you're going through DNA, you're, you're reading it out. Every three letters is a group. Okay. So ATG, that's a group. Okay.

And that is called a codon. And that codes for a specific building block for a protein. So it's saying, you know, ATG, I need some specific building [00:09:00] block and then CAC, that's a different building block. And so it, it's, it's the code that represents what is needed to build a specific protein. I know you're not an expert in it, but why is it three and not four?

If there's four letters, why is it codons are only three? It, I mean, that's a good question. I don't know if we, there's really an answer to that. It's, it's, it's likely to do with the fact that like the number of potential amino acids, like three, like the com, the variations, because four letters.

You can also think of codons as words. Sure. Like, so you have four letters, and you have three letter words. All of those combinations represent the total number of, like, amino acids. Well, like, that, that combination matches. Okay. Right? So there's like That's a hard concept to, like, really comprehend.

You're doing a good job. It's just a lot to understand. It is. Would it be the same as why you don't use 26 letters in every single word? [00:10:00] Yeah, kind of, yeah. You only need certain letters for certain words. And even why we have 26 letters in the alphabet is because of, like, the phonetic sounds we can make with our mouth.

You know, the 26 letters kind of just represent that in English well. So, yeah. But I mean, some of that answer is like That's why it's wild. It just is. There's also aspects of coding.

I'm pretty sure that's the one that yeah, it's the, it's the, it's the start signal in the DNA. So you think about it, like, how do you know, like you have a really long piece of DNA with all of these letters, how do you know where to start? to code for a protein. Well, it's often the specific combination ATG.

So ATG is like a a conon [00:11:00] that represents the start signal. So it's like start the protein here and then there's also an end signal. Which is often TGA. So you, you have ATG to start it. Then you have all of these building blocks you need, and then you have an end. So like that would be a protein.

And so as this protein gets built. There are mechanisms that get these pieces and put them together to build the, build the protein. Yeah, it's a, it's a complex process and I think the interesting thing is I mean there's a lot of interesting things, but like, a Darwinistic new, new atheism they, they would put, So like, how evolution is supposed to work is you have random changes in this code, right?

So you know, those can happen by just chance. Like a cosmic ray [00:12:00] comes in, hits the DNA, knocks a a C to a T in the sequence. And that is going to change the structure of the protein that is resulting. Like just a single letter change is going to say, okay, it was a start signal. Now it's something else and now you've just merged two together or like a small change can be a big difference.

Like if you think of like a sentence and you, you, you knock out a letter and switch it with a different letter, what are the chances that that forms a real word? And like. That seems more harmful than helpful. Like what are the chances that you randomly start changing letters in the book, Moby Dick, and then you get a different story out of it.

That's how we get cancer. Yeah. Yeah. In a lot of ways, mutations are. almost always harmful But you know [00:13:00] Darwinistic approach would say that you know, sometimes they are beneficial and those beneficial ones get kept and then like the non beneficial ones You know, if they're really harmful, they just makes the organism die.

So it can't reproduce. And so that doesn't live on, but the ones that, you know, help like claws. Yeah. Yep. Like Wolverine claws or whatever. Yeah. You know, those, those can get. stuck around because they benefit survival is, is the, is the theory, really. But, you can see how this is, like, problematic, like.

There's also the article that literally came out and said that that's not actually true. That study that just came out. Yeah, I mean, there was a headline this week on a study that was done that was trying to track the evolution of changes in a specific. Lizard. No, not in a specific species, but just in lizards on this chunk of land.

Yeah. Yeah. So they [00:14:00] like captured a bunch of these lizards. They tagged them all. And like every six months they would re catch them and then they would make all these measurements and they would say, Oh, you know, this one had longer, stronger legs and this, and they would track all of this over time through multiple years.

And basically. All the changes they saw, like, they expected to say, Oh, the wizards that had stronger, faster legs would live longer. Like, that was the hypothesis, and they would reproduce. And then, like, the population would start moving that direction. That's evolution. But there's still lizards. There's still lizards.

But even in that study, they For the length they did it all of the changes they saw, like the minor fluctuations in the species, they all pretty much washed each other out long term. Like, you know, there was a year where long legged lizards was more prevalent, and then the next year it was short legged, and then, like, but then, like, if you average it all out, nothing really changed.

Survival of the [00:15:00] fittest, they were finding that, that's not really actually working. And what was interesting though, is that's the first time that study was ever done, like since Darwinism became like the standard in how we came to be, how everything came to be this guy that ran the study is like, how come this has never been tested?

It's just been like, and he wasn't in it for like creationism, right? And you're just like, how is It's never been done before. So he's like, let's go. And then it was really, it was a really interesting paper. Super. It, they released it a couple of days ago, so it's out there if you want to find it and read it.

The end of the articles, basically the guy goes, evolution is still happening, but we're not really sure how the end. Like, it's just not happening the way we assumed I think is how he says it. Yeah. Yeah. So, also with DNA, we have a bit of a chicken and egg problem with it because so [00:16:00] we rewind back to, like, origin of life sort of questions.

What came first? Was it the DNA? Or was it the proteins that are used to make DNA? Because DNA is proteins. It's a, you know, a specific sequence of specific proteins and the nu the nucleotide bases so, like, how does that work? Like, they, they are dependent on each other, just like a chicken and an egg are dependent on each other and they cycle.

How do you get that first? aNd then you also have, like, The cell membranes and like all of these things are very dependent on one another and you kind of need all of them to work. That's the idea of like irreducible complexity.

So you, you need DNA, you need the specific enzymes or [00:17:00] proteins to help form DNA, and then you also need a cell membrane to protect it all. So the big theory that most scientists will go to to explain, oh, you know, the best explanation for this currently, scientifically, is what they call the RNA world hypothesis.

And so let's first talk about what RNA is. So DNA is more popularized. RNA has specific roles and their specific variations of it in the process of transcription. So what happens is the DNA gets kind of, it gets unzipped in a a specialized a specialized. nanomachine, or protein RNA polymerase, that's what it is.

It comes [00:18:00] in and it reads, it, it, it transcripts that DNA sequence into another strand that pairs with it and that new strand is RNA. So it's basically. Let's go back to the cookbook analogy. DNA is a cookbook. RNA would be like the note card that you write down the recipe on and take it to the chef.

So if you didn't want to take the whole cookbook into the kitchen and open it up and be like, here's what you need to make. Instead, you would sit there and be like, I want this recipe. Now I can leave the cookbook. That weighs a thousand pounds here and just take the one recipe for the chef. Yep. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's, yeah, it's the instructions for a specific protein assembly and that gets coded into an RNA and then that RNA. Goes to a, a a ribosome and that gets [00:19:00] read in, in the ribosome, and then another specialized kind of RNA, it's called a, a trans TRNA or a transfer, RNA it, that it goes out and it picks up.

The building blocks or the lego pieces out in the cell and brings them to the ribosome and then like there's a special like key Function so like for you know, let's say it's you know building block a has a special shape here and then the TN RNA that's carrying the right piece matches up with that perfectly And then it drops it off, and then the next code on's like, Hey, we need x, y, and Z piece.

And then A-T-R-N-A goes and picks that and drops that off. So it it, like, there's a lot of pieces going on. And RNA is a, a, a, a big factor in that process. 'cause it, not only does it carry the. The the messenger [00:20:00] mRNA, which has the instructions on it, the tRNA are what go and get it and bring the right pieces.

And then it gets all assembled. This protein gets assembled in a a ribosome. So question, I know you're not an expert on this. You might not be able to answer it. I can look it up later if I need to. What's the point? Like if you have DNA, which has everything that you need, right? All of your building blocks.

It's like the thousand pound cookbook. Okay? What is the point of RNA? Breaking that down piece by piece. Is it an efficiency thing for the cell? Yeah, presumably and it's also like

To protect the DNA I would think I mean, I'm not sure exactly right Like there's probably a lot of reasons that it makes sense But like, you know You, you keep your main instruction separate and then, you know, like the note card, it's okay, you know, you can go out and do what it's needed. It executes on it.

So [00:21:00] it's kind of like a separation of concerns. Like DNA is just to store it. And then RNA is to like make use of it. Yeah. Yeah. So the RNA world hypothesis says that things started more simply. So DNA. was not around originally, like, really early in life. The fir there this theory would say, at first, there was RNA.

So RNA can self replicate fairly easily in in terms of chemistry. It's really not all that easy. Like, it doesn't just happen naturally right now. Scientists kind of can coax it to do that but it can, there's, there's ways it can replicate. And so they're, they're basically saying that RNA was the, the original thing and it played multiple roles like the transfer RNA and the [00:22:00] messenger RNA and maybe some other roles.

It, it, it, you, it, it was like a primitive version. so Everything just kind of worked off of RNA. So simpler life forms, simpler Yeah. Breakdown of information, a. k. a. RNA. Yeah, because I mean that's their big problem. Like this is a very complex orchestra of events that are happening inside of every cell in your body.

And how do you explain that? Well, it's very, very difficult. So it's like they need to simplify Like if we can, if they can figure out a way it can work more simply and then get more advanced with little changes over time, that that's easier to like, it has to work that way. Like that's how evolution works.

It has to start from simple to complex. And so they're trying to figure out like, how can what seems like a very irreducibly complex system, like DNA, transcription, translation, all the pieces seem very dependent on one [00:23:00] another. How can we think of a. simpler way of doing it, and like, this RNA world is like Maybe.

This could work. Gotcha. Like, this could work, like the RNA has the right characteristics, it has information in it. So that, that's the main explalike explanatory factor. But there's a lot of holes in that theory, as you can imagine. Like, the big one is, It doesn't explain at all where the information came from still.

Like, RNA still needs that information of like, these are the instructions for a specific protein that is needed for some function. So, like, Yeah, it doesn't explain that big starting problem, initial problem. SO we know what happens if there's a mutation in DNA, like you get a mutation, so you get a gene that does something it's probably not supposed, wasn't designed initially to do, and it can cause [00:24:00] cancer, it can cause growth, it can cause, whatever, or, anyway, do, is this part of this discussion, maybe you're not super aware of it, but what happens when there's, is there a potential for a mutation in RNA?

Because I would assume that they would Say like mutations is how we got started. Like good mutations continued to happen and like it was kept in survival of the fittest. Can you have mutations in RNA? Yeah. And if it's so simple, like if something is that simple, quote unquote what happens when you get a mutation in a very simple thing that would seem like it would 100% not work or a higher likely that that mutation would be detrimental to the organism itself.

Yeah. Yeah. There's. Well yeah, I think what you're, you're, you're hitting on some concept of like information theory in general, which would say that like don't, English, English language has [00:25:00] redundancies built into it because like communicating information. Has errors built in like things get messed up.

So like, like if you changed a letter in a sentence, you could probably still read that sentence, right? You change a letter in a word. It depends on the word. If it was long enough, you probably could do it. But if it was like the word me and you changed E to a, you'd have to do some guessing. And so like the, but if it was in a sentence.

You could probably figure out, oh, it, from the context of that sentence, I know that it should be me. so There's, with every Information system, there's always redundancies built into it and context built into it for error correction. Right. DNA is no different. There is, there is error correction built into it, which is an interesting area in itself, but [00:26:00] So there's a redundancy protocol in RNA, potentially? Probably, but, like, if it's shorter and more simplified, like, that's harder to bring in that extra context to know what it should have been, right? Like like when you have a more succinct message, that every piece of the, you know, every letter matters, and if you change one, then the whole meaning is lost.

Right. It doesn't leave room for error correction, right? So, like, it's more likely that it's destructive. And do they just explain that away with, like, time? Like, RNA would have mutations, but over billions or millions of years, with the right blah blah blah blah, you're gonna get something that works, and that's what's gonna survive.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When you said RNA can self replicate, can DNA self replicate? It, it does. through, yeah, it does, you know it, that's one of the reasons it has the two strands, cause it also unzips and then it can [00:27:00] it can match. So like the, the fact that there's two strands is there, there's so many interesting things about DNA.

The fact that there's two strands and like each pair can only be matched with its counterpart means that you can, you can copy it, right? So you can have this side. And then you can rebuild the left half, and this time you rebuild the right half, and now you have two strands, and it has the same information.

And, so they're like, through, this is, I don't know some of this stuff off the top of my head, but like, DNA does replicate. And it's usually like cell divisions, right? So cells split and grow and divide. And every time they split, they have to copy that whole, like, you need a new set of DNA for that new cell.

So it has to, it has to replicate that way. Yeah. Yeah. So RNA, so RNA world that doesn't explain information. The [00:28:00] other problem with RNA world is it doesn't solve the protein problem. So RNA can. Fill some, some interesting roles like the, the TRNA and the messenger, RNA, but it doesn't replace proteins.

Like proteins are the structural machines that do the work. So in the, in the DNA transcription and translation process, there's multiple proteins at work doing things. Reading the DNA. Copying it, getting the right things and bringing it in. There's no explanation for like how RNA could fill some of those roles.

aDditionally like, so I guess it's kind of off in the first one, but like like the two. Let me see if I can read this real quick. Yeah, like, the first self replicating RNA molecule, there's [00:29:00] still no explanation on how that formed other than chains. And, RNA, there's, you're still talking about like, RNA being like 250 Nucleotides long, so the ATG, like the code, 250 long.

And the chances of those all lining up just right is, you know, a big number. You know, it says in here 1 to 10 to the 150th, which is a huge, huge number. ANd, you know, that's, we hit this concept before, but that's a lot of complex specified information to, to get just right. Yeah, so, like, RNA world is an interesting theory, and it kind of, gives a plausible yet very generic explanation on like, it could have been something like this, but like there's no [00:30:00] there's no proof of it, like, like, they've done some studies in the lab where they can get RNA to replicate but there's no natural mechanisms that have been observed to my knowledge to say, yeah, this is like a confirmed theory.

It's, it's kind of like the multiverse theory in that way, where it's like, here's a way it could have happened, but we don't have a lot of the specifics. Like we don't know exactly how it happened, but you know, it's in the realm of possibility that these broad things could have happened, you know, and they would argue not necessarily wrongly that, you know, that's how theories.

You start and then you, then you start figuring out the specifics, but the, you know, there's big holes in it. So it's, it's hard to say that this is a sure thing. But isn't that also like when you get down, like we've, we talked about this, [00:31:00] but I think the last time we met was the headlines. That's like, we've created this in the lab or we've been able to replicate this, this or this.

And. Yeah. In laboratory situations. If and when, if they're, if they haven't already, Like, you can get DNA to replicate, I mean, like, that's how crimes get solved. Like, you get a little bit, and you can, like, create the whole chain and be like, Now we know who this belongs to! Okay, anyway, but when it comes down to it, proving that it just happened on its own, like the proteins were just there, or they figured themselves out.

Is that the big jump? Like when we listen to James Stewart, is that where the big jump is? Where the, like, is it the amino acids? Is it the proteins? What is it where they're like, there's just no possible way, even in the next thousand years, will we ever? Come to a place where is it the amino acids [00:32:00] or the proteins are just Coming together on their own and kick starting the process with no human interaction whatsoever Which one of those is it?

Well, I mean one is a cascade of really hard problems. So like Step one is you need amino acids and you need the right ones That's where last week we talked about the URI, the Miller URI experiment. That experiment showed that they were able to, in the lab, with arguably somewhat realistic conditions on on early Earth, which we've now said is probably not true, they were able to form some amino acids using electricity and certain chemicals.

So, like, they got, like, the raw Lego pieces. of the, those amino acids, but, you know, to do that in a actual [00:33:00] in a way that's actually useful, you know, not as much because you need a lot of them and you need them to stay there. Right. They have to sustain themselves and continue moving forward without just dissolving.

Yeah. Because like. There's a lot of chemical volatation, like just because you can make a chemical doesn't mean it's going to stay that way for very long. You know, there's some amino acids, I think James Tewar said something like, you know, they can last from hours to maybe days, but you need a lot. To last a while, because then like, so now you have, you have all the, you know, let's say you have some of the Lego pieces you need and then you need them all come together in a way that's useful, right?

So like, you could take a box of Legos and shake it all day long and not get a house out of it. Like, that's kind of the problem. That's the next problem. It's like, okay, now even though let's say you have those amino acids, you have all of the ones you need, you know, they got to put themselves together in a way that's [00:34:00] useful and not only useful, but you have to then Say, that house, out of that, you know, tub of Lego boxes, you happen to get that house to be built.

You gotta do that again. Like, it has to replicate. It has to have some kind of process to keep it going. And to then have a process to make it improve. And so like, there's these, you know, and that's even more simplified than it is. Like, the, so like, at almost each step. There's a big gulf of unknowns and like, we just don't know how it happened.

And the biggest of them all is the information problem because information doesn't just happen, you know, like it's the whole, like monkeys writing Mozart. Shakespeare or Shakespeare, whatever it is. Yeah. It just, it just doesn't happen in any [00:35:00] realistic timeframe. And. So how do you, and like you need that to happen so many times, like there, like there has to be a, that's why the intelligent design theory is so attractive to me is it's just like, how else do you do it?

And so like Stephen Meyer, the head of the Discovery Institute, like information is his big I think one of the best arguments for intelligent design. And it comes down to this, like what explanatory factor. we have for specified information being created. So like we, we have specified information in the world today.

This book is full of it. The fact that there's donuts on the table like we have cups that hold liquids, all of that is specified information. What makes that? Well, humans do agency does. Minds make those things. Like we don't see natural books forming on trees or trees or even living. So [00:36:00] like we don't see them coming out of books.

You know, if you find a tablet and there's words or things that look like words scribbled on it, you think a human from a long time ago, you know, probably carved that thing. You don't think it was natural, right? Like, even our historians don't think that. Like, you don't see an archaeologist saying, Oh, look at this, you know this carved tablet.

It must have formed naturally. We just don't make those conclusions because it doesn't make sense. Oof lies. Out of place artifacts or something like that is like a thing in archaeology where they find something like that shouldn't be here Because our timeline says like in the Bronze Era they weren't making microchips or whatever and then they dig and they find something that shouldn't belong there and it has the title because they're like That shouldn't belong there.

It throws everything off, but they don't just assume it just Happened naturally, right? Yeah Yeah. So like that it's, you know, a design inference, like you're inferring that something was designed because it has function, it has specified [00:37:00] information to it and life has that. And it's very complex.

Like it's more complex than what we can do today, right? Like we, we, we create computers like my. My phone here is highly, highly organized and for a specific purpose. And like you change anything about that, you just spill enough water on it in the right place and it's going to stop functioning because it's, it's, it's highly designed, like the, the circuitry and the, the programming and all of that comes to play in it.

And that's why DNA is so often attributed to being like code because it is, it functions just like code. It's, it's, it's alarming how much it's like code. And where did that come from? Like that doesn't just happen naturally. We have no explanatory, like there, there's no explanatory factor that explains where the information came from.

Like the best thing that [00:38:00] secular scientists have is chance over long periods of time, but we're talking numbers that just don't make sense. You know, so then, you know, you start saying well, there must be an infinite number of universes and you know, ours is the Like we're talking about this today because we're in the universe that it actually happened in.

If you have an infinite number of universes Everything's gonna happen like by its nature and that just doesn't feel like a very good explanation to me like That just sounds like a parent being like, but why? Because I said, so don't ask any more questions. So what was the response like from your reading and research of this over time?

Like, what was this response when the human genome project kick started and then became completed in a sense where they, they sequenced the entire thing and they were like, whoa, right? Like there's a lot of information there. We finally broken it down. It took this amount of time. What was the initial response?

of like the scientific [00:39:00] community as a whole. I know that's a huge question, and you're not an expert again, but was it like, everybody hold please, let's digest this, let's talk through it, or was it like, of course, we would expect to see this? I don't think I mean, I'm speculating here, but I think the past 50 years has been an explosion of like the, like we're, we're digging up the well and it's just getting deeper and deeper and deeper and it's getting more and more complex.

I feel like scientists kind of came into this thinking. You know you know, for Francis Crick, when they discovered the helix and that there was information there, like, Oh, this explains some things. We're figuring this out. We're on the cusp of understanding life. And then, they started getting into it and they're like, Way more complex.

There's a lot going on here. Gotcha. You know, and like, you back up even further, Back in Darwin's day. They [00:40:00] just thought it was a, we, they thought we were just made up of little balls of jelly. And like those little balls of jelly are the most advanced nanomachines that we've ever seen and cannot replicate even with all of our technology today.

And, like how do you explain that? They don't have explanations for that, but what they do is they basically come at the problem from this like constrained perspective saying that we have to come up, there has to be a materialistic explanation. It exists, therefore there has to be an explanation of how it came to exist.

Are any of them actually offering chance as an answer? Or is that just a word that gets thrown out because they don't have anything else? Because I can't imagine a site like, you wouldn't have made three grand that weekend if chance was a satisfactory answer to a medical point, right? Like, Hey, let's just go toss these pills out.

to everybody because there's a [00:41:00] chance that it might have this effect. It's like, no, we're going to, like, study and do these things and stuff. So I'm just wondering, like, we talk about chance and this stuff, and I'm, I'm wondering if in your reading, if any of these scientists have actually offered chance as a thing that is satisfactory as a, as a, as a, as an explanation.

Yes and no. I'd say probably more no. I, I, I can't remember. There was a quote that I came across, and I can't remember if it's been in this book or somewhere else, so I won't spend too much time looking for it, but it was something on the lines that, like, you can only have so much luck as a factor in your scientific theory, like, Because luck is a thing.

Yeah, like, you can only have so much chance in your theory, because if you, like, For it to be valid, like you can have it starting out, like here's a rough sketch on how it could have functioned. And then you start filling in the details. That's the [00:42:00] goal of science. So like they're operating on this rough sketch approach and hoping that they can provide more detail to it, that they're going to, they're going to come up with some groundbreaking results.

So like, they're going to come up with an experiment, something like the Miller Urey thing and like the right things in the right way. And then. Oh, wow, it all starts coming together like they're looking for that sort of holy grail and they're like it must be there We just need to spend more time and effort looking for it it's kind of like

There's another example that I read I can't remember the exact details of but like for for whatever I think, so like ID, Intelligent Design Theory, would say that, like, their biggest complaint is like, it's impossible. Like there, there's nothing here [00:43:00] that's saying that this is possible. Like this is, this is something that can actually just happen.

And scientists are like, well, it had to because it exists. And they're like, well, there's other explanations. Like the explanation that best fits it is agency, is a mind. Because we, we see that today. In our own things that we make, but scientists are like, no, we need a naturalistic explanation because that's how science works.

Science only works on that scale of things. While some science like archaeology is all about discovering agency and trying to figure out who the agent was that made it. That's what archaeology is. And so ideas like, hey, we should bring some of those concepts into some of these some of these theories and maybe that'll change how we do, do science.

But yeah, to, to your point, like, they're not comfortable with just saying, ah, it's chance, that's a good enough explanation. But it's, it, it, so like, [00:44:00] they're like, that, that bothers them, I would presume, that, you know, chance is not good enough. There's quote, there, there are multiple quotes by origin of life and evolutionary scientists are like this doesn't make sense the way it is, but they're like, we'll figure it out.

It's kind of, they're, they're optimistic, you know, and, and that's good for the sake of moving science forward. But ID is challenging and saying, there's a simpler explanation. Maybe we should investigate it. And then the scientific world's like, no, you're pseudoscience because that's not testable. But it kind of is actually testable or like it has implications.

Like it can change your approach to how you work on these things. Is it also a sorry, I kind of walked in late on the question, but I think I can understand where you were going with it. Does so obviously we're sitting here from a biblical Christian [00:45:00] mind. Okay, so in the scientific world, we assume as Bible believing Christians that secular science just doesn't want to admit that the God we believe in is the agent.

For in actuality, is secular science just anti, is it an anti Christian God thing, or is it simply just Do you know what I'm Yeah. Because usually it comes down to secular science versus Christian pseudo science or whatever. But is that really the case or are we looking at it through a blurred lens of like them versus us when in actuality it's like science just doesn't want to or cannot or will not admit that agency exists period no matter who you call it.

I don't think it necessarily [00:46:00] has to be science, it's just, it's just the flesh. Sure. Yeah. We don't. We don't. But like, do you see what I'm asking when I say you never hear anybody saying like, we know that Allah didn't create this. We know that I don't know any other religion and they're like God in creation, but like you go to the native American, whatever, just it always comes down to Yahweh.

It always comes down to biblical God of them being like, it's not that. And it's like you never hear them saying anything else, but again, I'm like, I'm going to be biased in that because I'm going to pay more attention to a secular scientist that says it's not the God of the gaps. It's not God. Or is it simply just agency?

They don't really care who is saying it's our. Individual who is the agency. There's like no [00:47:00] agency at all. I think because it's religion No matter what religion that is when you said god of the gaps. I think that's what science pushes back to on the most so it wouldn't matter who that god is. Well, they always are like I think, I think there's a couple of things there.

I think one Christian, Christianity is the biggest Western religion, so it has the biggest target in a sense. Because like you've got Europe and America that have the bigger colleges, that have the bigger labs. Okay. Yeah, and you, and like, they have, it's more vocal opposition. I think there's also the Christian careful how I say this.

The, the, the, the creationism. Sure. Like, aspect of Christianity, that sometimes spins things in a way that seems ridiculous to scientists. Sure. And, like, they attack that. [00:48:00] Yeah. You know, and, like, they Often we'll lump creationism and intelligent design under the same thing. And like, we saw this at the Supreme Court level, not that long ago in the 90s or early 2000s, I can't remember.

The 90s. Yeah, I think, yeah, the 90s which Stephen Meyer actually testified in support of intelligent design. But the problem was, is like, The message got so mixed into creationism and religion. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with creationism. I'm just saying that it comes from a different perspective.

It comes from a this is the Bible. First, and we're gonna, we're going to explain things with that lens, no matter what it is. You're using the Bible as a scientific book and not a book of scootums. Yeah, no, you're good. How do I pick that? Where do I get the recording? How do I get to that? So I'll send it out.

Yeah, you can also look for design Designed from [00:49:00] Reason on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Wherever you get your podcasts. Wherever you get Just Spotify and Apple, Laura. Are there other places? That's a good question. YouTube is trying to get there. But Where was I? CrEationism, Intelligent Design, using the Bible as a book of science, which is not what it was intended for.

But that's kind of where that comes out of. Yeah, there's Yeah. So like when you approach science and you're like, okay, there's multiple ways to approach it. Right. Like, and looking at it as like the Bible says that earth was created in seven days, so I'm going to take that literally, and then I'm going to filter all the science I can through that perspective. It's that is any approach. Like you can do that. That's an approach you can take, but at, but that approach. means that it has consequences where it's like you're now [00:50:00] saying that everything has the appearance of age.

So, like, things that we observe that are old like starlight from a galaxy a million years away that we can see, I mean, that presumably took a million years to get here, well, You know, and, you know, if you start narrowing that down, you're saying, Oh, God started that light halfway here, or whatever, whatever it was.

Or like, the rocks that have eroded over a long time. So that, God made it with appearance of age. Like, sure, you can say that. The problem is, is that's not a. The, the, you're, you're looking at it from You're kinda doing what the secular world does, which is like It probably happened over time, don't worry about it And everybody's like, wait a second You're coming in with Like if your goal is to find the truth, you, you can't come in with presuppositions.

Or as you have to limit them, you have to be like, okay, I need to look at this problem, look at the [00:51:00] evidence, you know, look at theology, look at science, look at our current observations and understand their limitations. Like one, the Bible wasn't written to be a science book. It was to tell a story about who Jesus Christ was and what our role on earth is.

You know, it's not trying to explain. DNA, codons, and how our information works. It just isn't. So that's a limitation of the Bible. It's not a science textbook. You come in from science, and it's like, well, we have a physical limitation on what we can observe. We have eyes, we have ears, we have nose, we have mouth, we have tools that can help enhance those.

But at the day, we're limited to our perspective, and the tools that we can make. to observe the natural world that we're in. So we, we are limited there too. So like you have to come at these things, understanding that the limitations are there. So to answer your question, I think scientists in [00:52:00] general look at explanations.

And they just cover them all with, that's a god of the gaps. You're talking about Zeus being the reason for lightning. Right. And we're just, and their main argument is, give us more time and we'll be able to figure out an explanation. And that's maybe not untrue. Like, we've seen that happen over and over again.

Like, we can explain how lightning works now. We can explain earthquakes and why they happen with plate tectonics. Whereas, you know, 200 years ago, those were acts of God. Mm hmm. Or sickness. Or sickness, or plagues, like all of these things we have better explanations for. It's like, oh, the Black Plague happened and every, like, you know, that could have been you know, a punishment.

Or it could have been that they were living in nasty environments with full of bacteria, you know, like. Or both. Or both, exactly. So. Like, they're complicated things and I think, I, the reason why I'm drawn to intelligent [00:53:00] design is it's just looking at the broad scope of evidences, saying what makes sense here.

anD like, we will always bring our own biases in because we don't have omniscience. Like, we don't know everything. So like, we're going to hold certain things to a bigger impact than other things, where a scientist who is fully secular is going to say, I am coming at this with the presupposition that everything has a naturalistic explanation.

Whereas many of us would come into the conversation saying, you know what? I believe there's a creator, there's a God, and I'm going to look at the science through And I'm going to look at the science through that lens. And I'm going to, and I'm going to interpret it. I'm going to look at it and, and figure out where things land.

And like, sometimes they're hard. There are hard things that you aren't really sure about, but you just keep working through it. Because we're not [00:54:00] omniscient and no one is like at the end of the day, we all have to make a best. We have to work through it and talk about it and think about it, which is why we're here.

This morning is to, is to work through these things. So, like, it's, I try, I really, I think I, I have to fight this bias and I think most people do is like trying to see science as the, the bad guy or like the, like, oh, they just don't get it. Like, that might be true and like I think there is elements of that in, in especially high academia where it's like just dogma and it's just like, if you, like you can lose your job if you don't come at these, you know, from the, the evolution perspective and you can get ridiculed.

Or you get a Wikipedia page that calls you a pseudoscientist. Exactly. Which doesn't make sense because like, everyone, I think, is motivated, [00:55:00] like most people in that field are motivated by understanding what the truth is, and like, great. Like, let's understand where our presuppositions are coming from. And like, let's actually listen to arguments instead of just ruling them out.

Like, you know, the fact that, you know, ideas just rolled off as a pseudoscience, I think is it doesn't make sense. It's not scientific. If you look at what science really is, it's like, Oh, that's a theory. That explains how this happened, like, we know agency creates specified information. We see specified information in DNA, how, why would we rule that out?

Why would we rule that out, I think is the big question that I would challenge scientists with, is like, What's so wrong with considering that as an option? I'm not even saying that I'm not even saying you have to believe that that's the way it happened, I'm saying just consider it as a potential option.

Like, what's, what's, [00:56:00] that, that's science. Like, look at all the ways this could have happened and try to explain it. And I would encourage scientists to still look at, like, other explanations. Try to go down the whole, like, let's try to make life from nothing path. See where we go. I'd be interested to see how far that can go.

But it's not going very where, it's not going very Well, right now, it's not going very fast, except in the direction of like, we're just understanding more and more how complex things are, and, and, honestly, like, understanding the life has come, understanding how life works at that cellular level has come up with tons of medical technologies and advancements and crazy things that, like, we would have never been able to do, like.

You know, like the CRISPR stuff, and like, Anti rejection meds, so you can put a pig heart in a person and they don't immediately die? Yeah, I mean, all of that stuff is What's CRISPR stuff? CRISPR genes. So, CRISPR is a [00:57:00] technology that lets you manipulate DNA, basically, and like, If that's possible, then, Yeah.

Actually get in there and do anything with DNA and have it not be a complete disaster. They're able to do that? Yeah, it's actually insane what they can do. Okay. Maybe not the non complete disaster yet, but But like if a baby, if they do, like if you like some parents like to do genetic testing, like when they're pregnant, to know what they can plan and expect for with their child, like especially if you know you're a carrier of something, like if you're a carrier of a genetic defect.

So they can test for that. They could test They can't manipulate genes yet. Well, so what they can do is they can turn them off. So like you can go in, yeah, you can go in and you can, you can turn off genes that are in that sequence down there. Like, okay, if this gene continues working the way we know this [00:58:00] disease or this mutation works, then this child will probably grow up and eventually develop this.

Or they will struggle with this. Now that's like, if everything is wonderful and perfect and you don't go wild with it. And they are. Like, you can go in and say, we're gonna turn that off. And, but then, what a lot of people are saying CRISPR genes is scary, is they're calling them designer babies. Right, like you're, you go in for IVF or you go in for whatever they can figure out later on in the future and you start with that little embryo that's like developing and splitting and you're like, okay, I really want a blonde hair.

Blue eyed baby. Turn this on, turn this off, and that's what you get. Or I want a kid that's going to be six foot five, cause they, I, like, we really want a basketball star. Or we want a doctor, and so we turn off this gene that allows their brains to do this. That's the, that's the scary part of, like, what are you creating and designer people and designer babies.

But the good Is that a continuation of what Hitler was trying to do? [00:59:00] Yeah, he just was trying to breed them in and out. Like people, he was using different eugenics. Yeah. We a hundred percent still are like but like there is, there is good in it because we do have, we do have mutations in DNA that causes children and people to develop diseases and, and terrible things that you look at and eugenics would say, like, you just need to kill them because they don't, they don't have a great life.

So don't even allow them to suffer, just kill them off ASAP. When in actuality, it's like, okay, but if they don't know any different, and they, like, they are a unique human being, like, that's a whole nother discussion. But CRISPR genes is turning that on and off, and you can use that for goodness, like, what if your child is going to be blind or develop cataracts at age 5?

Or you have some children that are born, I can't remember what it's called, but there are two there are two, terrible gene mutations that happen in [01:00:00] children that you can detect for now, but we can't do anything with and that's like where they're born and they are Functioning and growing but their body is like 80 years old like those rare kids where they look like an old old individual and they only live for like 10 years and they die of like arthritis and things you would see a 90 year old die from.

You could turn that off in a baby or in an early embryo and give that child the ability to live a semi normal life. There's also another mutation. If you ever go to the Mütter Museum, you should go because it's intense to see the Mütter Museum in Philadelphia, in Philadelphia. It's amazing. Look it up.

M U T T E R. It's so good. It's so good. But there. There are two skeletons. There was one for a really long time and now there's two because one woman passed away in the 90s, I believe, and she had this mutation and she wanted her skeleton on display with this other skeleton so that someday someone could figure out a cure and they're actually really, really close.

They're really, [01:01:00] really close. But what it does is as you get older all your soft tissue turns into bone. And so as you get older, as things break, like if your body, basically what happens is you turn into a living statue, your, your soft tissue your muscles turn into bone to the point where eventually usually in their teenage years, a doctor will advise that the child find the most comfortable position to function in for as long as possible, because you will.

eventually be locked in, like your fingers won't bend anytime that there is damage to the body, that that wound becomes bone even quicker. And then they die, because they suffocate, their lungs start to get too hard, their hearts become too hard. It's a terrible disease. It's terrible, and you can see that skeleton on display right now, by her, that was her will and testament, but basically, CRISPR genes would say, when we know that two parents are carriers, and they have that baby, and we test that that baby's DNA early on and say, holy cow, 100 percent [01:02:00] they have that.

They, that is how they will live. I can't imagine a parent being like, I'm not, I'm just gonna let that happen. You know what I mean? And so CRISPR genes could be amazing, could be incredible, but it's actually somebody do terrible things with it. It's a nuclear war. Yes. Well, here's this, here's the, I don't know, exciting slash scary part, is like there's a guy on YouTube his channel's called the Thought Emporium, I think.

And, like, he does stuff with CRISPR, like, in his garage. Like, it's a very approachable technology. I mean, you have to know a lot, you have to be pretty smart, but, like it's not something that, like, only million dollar labs can do. Right. So this guy, he has a YouTube channel, and he's done things like Create, modify yeast so that it creates spider silk.

He takes like the, the protein that creates spider silk. And he mixed it into a yeast bacteria. They did that with sheeps a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, but like this guy [01:03:00] did it in a garage. Right, but like it's been happening since the 90s. Yeah, CRISPR was in the, in the, in the, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you can, you can.

Kind of do these crazy things. Yeah. And people, you know, there's a, there's a national security risk even of like people creating viruses 2000s has disappeared. Like he made the news and now he's gone. So where does the government stand on, on that at this point? No, I mean, they're, they're anti human like modifying, like, well, yeah, like there's, there's.

Yeah, they were talking about it on the Golden News a week or so ago. They had a guy on who, I forget the terms he used now, but there's the, like, There are hereditable and non hereditable ways that it's done. And so the problem with the Chinese guy is that he made, [01:04:00] he made a change to two babies. One of them lived, the other one didn't.

And the changes that he made, Or hereditary, I'm not using the right word, but It would be passed on. It would be carried on. And the one that died got the ones, got which ones? Oh, I don't, I don't, I don't remember exactly. I have to go back and listen to it. Oh, but both babies had the change that was Something, yeah, something like that.

And, and the, the changes that were made were, will probably lead to like a lot of bad things. Yeah. I don't like, I don't like And it's not just this, it's not, it's not this simple, like, hey, we're going to change this with like everything cascades. Yeah. so It's not just, it's, it's cool stuff in its own way.

And yeah, there are other things you can do, but it's not so cut and dry as like, oh, we're just going to simply, the ripple [01:05:00] flip this or flip that. It's like, it's all tied together. So like the, the COVID vaccines. They were messenger RNA vaccines. I've heard of RNA before. Yep, mRNA. mRNA, so like the COVID vaccines, and I, again, I'm not an expert in this, so take this with a grain of salt or fact check me.

Those, those vaccines were developed and basically injected You with messenger RNA that encoded for the antibodies for, for COVID. So chickenpox, the chickenpox vaccine, MR, the MRSA stuff. Or not MRSA. So the, the MR, MRNA vaccines are fundamentally different than other vaccines because it's the other vaccines.

They inject you with like a wounded or dead a dead virus. So your body learns how to make the antibody without being at risk of getting the full fledged thing. MNRA those vaccines skip that [01:06:00] step and just give you the pure information that your body needs to make the antibodies. And that work was being done.

mRNA vaccines have been an area of research for the past 20 years. But then COVID hit and like, it was like Is that the first time they used it? I think so. I don't know if it's the first time they used it, but it was the first time it was widely used for sure. Yeah, and quick. Like, yeah. It's hard to, yeah.

They got a lot of funding really quick. Yes. And they were able to accelerate things and get it, get it functional. So like these Yeah, there's a lot of medical advancements that are coming as a result of this, but you know, with any technology, there's a dark side to it. And risks and side effects.

Unknowns. Like, yeah. Yeah. Is it polio? Was polio mRNA? Polio vaccine? I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I know it says [01:07:00] they were the, COVID was the first one. Was it? Approved for human use. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So who knows the other ones that are like, yeah, I thought It was a pretty big deal. Was it ready?

Define ready. So I, I watched it. Yeah. There's your question. Yep. Probably, you know, not at, they definitely got a lot of funding to move it quickly. Yeah. And, you know, they, It would have been so great if that had been done without political, like, could it have been better? Could it have, who knows, but like the fact that it went straight into politics, I'm like, Oh my word.

Yeah. They've been very complicated. Absolutely. Like, holy cow. I listened to an interview from one of the guys who worked in the lab that had been studying mRNA vaccines for the past 20 years and he's like, this is a technology that wasn't just like overnight, overnight to make the COVID vaccine. Like we've been working on this a long time, but like when the pandemic hit, like obviously we got a lot [01:08:00] more funding and then we also were able to like it was most.

Like it was pretty much ready and then like this was like a forced hand sort of thing. It was like, okay, we can actually make this, we can do this. But like the longterm trials obviously couldn't have been done. It's not like they could have like gave someone a COVID vaccine and then watched him for 20 years.

It just wasn't possible. You're like, here you go. That's what you were actually testing there. You probably got some weird DNA information now. No, I. It's, it's, it's fascinating, but like the, the effects of these things are really like viruses can affect your DNA through these same sort of factors.

So, yeah, like polio. Yeah, kids can walk. Got polio. You're crippled. Big, big things. Yeah. Any other thoughts or questions before we wrap [01:09:00] up? We're almost at time. I completely understand this no questions, no money, wow. Yeah, it's, it's a complex topic. And it's very deep, like, I mean, people go to school for this and become microbiologists and we're just scratching the surface of it.

December 3rd, 2023 - Complexity of the Cell

Generated Transcript

Last month we talked about the universe and how things began there. And then we shifted into what makes our planet special and the concept that our planet is set up for not only life, but also discovery and learning and.

science you know, like things like the moon being exactly able to eclipse the sun so that we can see the heliosphere and learn about how the sun works and how it was able to prove Einstein's theory of relativity with the curvature of light around the sun from the stars that were behind it.

So we're shifting from that to much, much smaller.

We're going into life itself and cells and like the chemistry of life and how it could have started. It's a big, you know, it's a topic in science.

It's usually called the origin of life studies. There's a lot to that. So, we'll start by just saying what science holds to now, right?

So we've talked before that science kind of [00:01:00] holds this, materialistic assumption underlying their science. So they are looking for evidence of how life could start without intervention, but not through natural processes. How could that happen? That's really the question they're trying to answer.

sO they would say like life. Originated from inorganic material through chance based processes.

So you, you know, I think we all can remember back or have heard of the primordial soup idea, right? Like, early Earth, you know, like, there's a, there's a, there's a slime puddle that's being heated by lightning or even like geothermal vents. And like there are these chemicals that are stirring about and like they managed to form the first simplest organisms that could [00:02:00] reproduce, right? So, like, that's the key is like, how do you create something complex enough where it can reproduce itself and then kick off Darwinistic evolution. , and, you know, that, that idea is pretty much widely accepted. That's kind of how it happened. yoU know, most scientists would not say we know exactly how it happened. Which is good, because we don't. But they, they, they are very optimistic that we'll figure it out and that progress is being made, and we'll come back to that. It's also been presented, though, like, in media for people that aren't digging into those papers, that it has happened.

Yeah, that's a good aspect to talk about. So, like, the I don't know, like, it, it might be like Google's bias towards me, but I, I end up getting a lot of like headlines about like origin of life research or science research and stuff like that.

Are you, [00:03:00] you see these headlines like Science Creates the First Synthetic Cell Cell or you know, key Missing Building Block, discovered or even, you know, more recently, like, amino acids discovered on asteroid samples the building blocks of life was a lot of times palace of praise, and they're very cessational headlines, and it makes it seem as if we are much, like we have a pretty good handle on how this all works, , and even there's a study that Dr.

James Tour references in some of his talks where he talks about, like I think the questions are something like, how many people think that they've created a frog in the lab? Something like a frog in the lab. No, it's a frog. Because they did a survey. And it's like, something like a third of people think that we can create something as complex as a frog in the lab.

Which is just. Out of nothing? Yeah. Like, just synthetically. They [00:04:00] claim that they really have created a frog. They haven't, but that's people's assumption. So like, people were polled and said, do you think that scientists have created a life form as complex as a frog? frog in the lab and like a third of people responded, yes.

And then the next question was like, okay. How it was like, do you think that scientists have been able to create like single cell life in the lab? And it was like something like two thirds of the people said, yes. So we're talking 66, 66 percent of the average public believes that science can make synthetic life more or less, which.

Spoiler is not true. Do they say out of nothing when they ask the question? Or do they just assume that that's what it means? I don't know if That's probably been part of the question. I think it's, it's from like non life materials. So like, not necessarily out of nothing, but like out of like, minerals and, What we haven't heard.

Yeah, things that aren't alive. Like making things that [00:05:00] Making life from things that aren't alive. And these are average, non scholarly, like, they went out to the public and they were like, Would you like to take a survey? Like, what are your thoughts on this? Based off of just life experience, like, in your 20s, in your 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.

And I remember I remember when I was in my teens, I was in my teens and which would have been in the 90s, right? Yeah. Anyway. And I remember seeing an article somewhere. I don't know if it was in school or what, but I remember seeing an article that freaked me out even as a kid because I wasn't a Christian, but like God was very important to me.

And I remember seeing an article that they had created cellular life in a lab. I remember seeing that article and panicking as a kid, because I was like, what does that mean? Like, what are the implications of that? At 15? Like, that must be really scary. Of course, I didn't read it. But I saw the headline and I was like, that's not something I can touch.

Like science is scary. Science is evil. [00:06:00] Science is bad. This is not good. But even back then, like I, yeah, this is not new. Yeah. Because, well, because even if you read the article, yeah, it's very, it's, it gets quickly Scientific, or like there's a lot of big words and a lot of science concepts and you're like, okay, I'll trust what they say Something like that like or ignore it.

I mean, let's be fair. Most people don't read the articles. Anyways, it's just headlines That's how we get a lot of our news I mean still even today like it I have to be really interested before I click into an article otherwise, I'm just like I get the gist from the headlines and The the intros and stuff but Okay.

Let's, let's back up and talk about the cell itself and how it's fundamentally structured. So, cells are, you can think of them as like mini factories. Like they have jobs and like, there is like assembly lines and there's, there's a lot of things going up.[00:07:00] They're basic, but at the simplest, there's their factories that create proteins, like that's what cells do.

And pro like, okay. What's a pro? So a protein is a chemical that is composed of amino acids. Amino acids are just a simple like a, a compound and you put bunches of these like amino acids together in chains and you form a protein and that protein has a function, , in the cell. So you can think of amino acids like, Letters and proteins like words.

So you know, you might have amino, amino acids. Well, the interesting thing is like there are 20. fundamental amino acids that pretty much all life on earth uses. Like, 20 amino acids, that's it. For trees, viruses, bacteria, humans, all of that.[00:08:00] And those are basically the, the, the letters of the alphabet.

Coincidentally, it's about the same numbers of, like, we have 26 letters in the alphabet, so it's about, it's around the same. But the way you order those creates words. And you can think about the English, English language with 26 letters. How many tens of thousands of words do we have? Lots. And then you think about.

How many, if you start randomly putting letters together, how many times do you make an actual word? Like not often, most of the time it's nonsense, right? Like you start just randomly picking letters, like alphabet soup, you know, you take a spoonful and you see what letters are in there and you're not getting a word most likely in the right order, you know amino acids are very much similar to that where you need the.

letter is in the right order to achieve a function. But proteins don't, it doesn't really [00:09:00] stop there because proteins can also combine to create more complex machines. You know, so you can think of that as like paragraphs. anD those paragraphs then form systems, which then, you know, chapters and then a living cell is the whole book.

And we're not, we're just talking about a cell. We're not talking about a human being here because now you, after that, you actually have more systems. You have groups of cells and types of cells that form organisms, structures in the same way that a cell has structures cells are very much smaller versions of, uh, you and I, like they have organs, they have mechanisms in there.

take in energy, they expel waste, like every cell in your body is doing these things internally on an individual basis.

Yeah, so, yeah, [00:10:00] yeah, it's pretty, it is pretty crazy, like cells are incredibly complex.

Which is interesting, okay, so let's, you know, back up in history a little bit. So like, during Darwin's time, when Darwin came up with his theory of evolution, what did we know about the cell? Does anyone know?

Extraordinarily simple. Yeah. That's what we thought. Yeah, yeah. So, during Darwin which, you know, in the early 1900s, We didn't have a good handle on how cells worked or even what they were or their role. They were just basically seen as little blobs of jelly. They called them what did they call them?

They called them protoplasm? Yeah. Is that right? I think that's right. And like they were, they were just seen, because like at the time, like the best microsopes, basically that's all they saw, right? They just saw this little blob of and they're like, okay, like that's the Lego piece that makes [00:11:00] up human beings.

And that was it. so, you know, like during Darwin's time, even Darwin proposed this idea of, he didn't call it the, the primordial soup. I think he called it like a puddle or something like that. Yeah, a warm little pond is what Darwin said. And like, he was like, okay, you got a warm little pond.

It's like, okay, eventually, you know, some kind of little goopy blob thing forms and then it can re replicate. And like the complexities of the cell really weren't understood or no. So it was honestly more plausible of an explanation in Darwin's age. And it, it was, it's, from there things just got a lot worse for trying to figure out how these things, like, the complexities of them.

Excuse me. Isn't there, like, isn't there an entropy that says things tend to disorder anyway? Like, [00:12:00] rather than come together and form something complex and, or like. that things tend towards disorder. Disorder or in homo, like homogenousness, right? So like you know, you think about, we talked about coffee earlier, you know, you pour creamer and coffee for a while, it's complex and it's swirling and stuff.

And then it just kind of, it becomes, uh, you know, one cohesive, one cohesive thing, and nothing really interesting is happening at that point. And like, that's a good way of looking at how cells and life works. Is life sits on the balance of this. Like you need that chaos of the creamer mixing with the coffee, coffee to make these chemical reactions and do all these things, and you're constantly trying to live on that edge.

Mm-Hmm. That's why you need, you need to constantly pour energy into that system, like con, continually pouring creamer in there and coffee in there to always have that like balance of. [00:13:00] Chaos in a way or it's like, it's, it's unstable stability, right? Like it's, it's kind of weird, but you kind of got to stay right on that edge.

Right. Where it's like, okay, these, I have enough energy to make these things happen and have this, this work be done. But I also need to make this a system that can repeat over and over again. Without mutating. Because if you continue doing that as humans, like if, if that continued working as we are. in our own bodies.

If it stopped, you die. But if it continues, like, you are growing tumors, you are growing third legs, eyes aren't, like, evolution continue, evolution continues from a Darwinian perspective, but it goes terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, go ahead. So like, for historical context, Darwin lived from 1809 to 1882.

Did he, the science at a place where he would understand? things like devolve instead [00:14:00] of like, then they would go from, yeah, I'm trying to understand like his mind, he would have had the concept of like the, like he would have known the laws of thermodynamic dynamics. Cause like those kinds of, I think those go all the way back to like Newtonish.

Okay. And like, there is like yeah, so they would have had some of that, but like, that's where the. That's why reproduction is so key, because like, that is fighting those laws of dis like, disorder. Like, by re like, by reproducing, it's like, okay, so like, we all have lifespans, right? Like, it's like, okay, we can live so long, and then like, the system starts breaking down in ways that we can't stop.

So, the answer to that is reproducing, you know, so that life can continue past us. And So like that was seen as like, okay, if you can get to this point, then it, it cycles and builds on [00:15:00] itself is, is the, is the argument. Yeah, there's I wasn't sure if I was going to talk about, but like, and like to date right now, like leading origin of life I was just listening to this this week.

There's a researcher named Lee Conan and he just released a He's producing this theory called assembly theory, and his goal is to mathematically have an an equation. It's fairly simple equation in regards to equations go, but it, it kind of quantifies the complexity factor and like in the paper, it says like anything that results in an answer above 15, it is a indication of Life in the sense that like life cut like once you pass this boundary Life just kind of kicks off and is inevitable and [00:16:00] like there's a there's a lot of aspects to that and I'm still kind of digging into what it is myself, but It's almost in my opinion.

It seems as if there are They're acknowledging the complexity and that it's highly, if not impossible for things of a complex specified nature to exist without some sort of memory. Like, okay, this is how I build a protein. Like, you need that. So you can repeat the process. You need this repeatable instructions.

You need to like save that information in order for the assembly to continue. So I was listening to a few things and I never really got a clear understanding on what that saving mechanism was, like, that's what I was really interested in and I don't think they propose one, I think it's just like. At some point.

The chemical information. Mm-Hmm. [00:17:00] gets stored in a way that it can be repeated and re executed. Right?

Just like that's basically the job of DNA in the cell, right? The DNA is those instructions for the cell and the organism on how it should function. So you have that saving mechanism and DNA mm-hmm, but then like how do you get that before DNA existed?

There's not a good answer for that as far as I've heard. So like basically the, the whole, like they admit they don't know mostly.

Like headlines are one thing, but like scientists know, like they, they know that like there are big problems and they're trying to solve them. Which great, like I'm all for them trying to solve that and try to figure out things.

My, as you guys know, my assumption. Is they're gonna find out that God has done some amazing things. Mm-Hmm. . And like, just because we know [00:18:00] how, how, just because we think we know how Gravity works doesn't make it any less amazing that God made it that way. Right. Right. So, so, so I, I guess this is really helpful 'cause I guess in my.

Life and knowledge, you know, you look at things that are They have an appearance of simplicity In almost every arena of life and then the digger the the deeper you dig you're like, oh my goodness. There's complexity in this Let's say, scientifically, in this, this organism, there, there is such complexity.

It appears simple, but it has complex Now, from a pastor's side, it's like, uh, you can see people, it seems simple, but then when you dig in, counseling ministry is kind of like, oh, you know, it's all very complex. It's all very, and we have to go here. Businesses are built. It's very [00:19:00] it appears simple, this is a simple business concept, but if you meet the, the owner of the business or the founder of the business, it's very complex.

There's always a story of how it worked and, and there's complexities that have led to the simple tasks of let's say a business. So I'm trying to think through like Darwin's mind in the 1800s, like he's, he's a smart guy. He's a, he's a fairly religious person. And yet. Is he, I guess I'm trying to get the ethos of like, is he going against the grain of his culture to say something simple developed into something complex, which now we're, we know it seems like evidence keeps building to like this idea of very complex that devolves eventually like our bodies eventually will, you know it's a very complex structure that eventually devolves and we die.

But is Darwin Does he feel that? [00:20:00] Does he sense that? And I have not read any of his writings, so I don't know. He, so Like I'm going against the grain to say simple brings complex. There was a big unknown. Like, they just didn't understand how life could have formed at all. You know, cause like, we can look at something and be like, that's a rock, that's a frog.

Like, the frog's alive, the rock is not. Now, once you start trying to say why, that becomes a lot harder. Like, why is the rock not alive, and why is the frog not alive? Well, the frog can reproduce, and like, you start characterizing what makes something alive. So like, Darwin Like there was a big mystery of like, okay, how does this happen?

And like, you know, classically Darwin went to the Galapagos islands and he saw the finches and he was like Okay, I see that these finches have different Beaks for different situations. So like they're all they're basically the same thing with small variations and [00:21:00] so he proposed that Natural selection that that is the force which says that like the birds with the right beaks to eat the right food are going to survive.

And like, so he's like, okay, I've discovered a mechanism which allows changes over time. It's deduction. Yeah. Like he just watched and deduced. Yeah. But like, we were talking about this a bit yesterday. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but like there was a lot happening in this era. Like we have the industrial revolution kicking off, which means we are creating technology.

where you can say, the frog's alive, the rock is not, and then we created this, these mirrors, and these lenses that allow us to look at the rock even closer and notice that there's life on the rock. That's very small. What does that mean? How can life, how can something not alive have life on it? And, um, also, I [00:22:00] mean, I think you understand, I think you know the timeline better than I do, is like, religious life was becoming more open, like where you weren't going to get stoned to death if you were like, I don't know if God created all of this, or I don't know if he created it the way they're saying, like this group is saying that it has always been done.

So yeah, sorry. No, that's good. So like to answer your question more directly, like during prior to Darwin, There was the best explanation for life was sounds ridiculous today, but the best explanation for life was spontaneous generation. So they proposed basic theory was happening at that point too.

Okay. Yeah. It was my, like, have you heard of my asthma? You ever heard of that? Okay. So the idea was like so Victorian era, it was the same timeframe. I'm almost positive of it, but like they were discovering [00:23:00] germ. theory, not knowing what germs were, but the idea was people got sick because of bad air, which is not totally wrong because like if you are living around a pile of garbage that smells really bad, you probably also have disease and putridness and you're going to get sick.

But the idea was that if you like people during the plague. couldn't understand why some people were getting sick. And so when they got sick, they were like, smell this flower because it smells nice. And so this, there was this idea that there was something happening within the air and they were just watching and observing with no means of going deeper into it to determine why are things happening?

Why are people dying? Why are people getting sick? Why are pustules erupting on people's bodies? And they weren't attempting to deceive. They were just watching and attempting to. Playing and they had this recipe for life that they assumed Yeah. Like, so, like it's not necess like observationally. Mm-Hmm. . So like, they're just observing life around them from what they understand.

Yeah. And they're like, okay, if [00:24:00] I leave a piece of meat out, maggots show up. Mm-Hmm. . So they're like, they spontaneously they come like they don't, they, you know, they weren't seeing the flock, like they weren't making the connections of what was actually happening. They was asking for mouse. So much so, this calls it out here that in the 19th century a scientist named Jan Baptista they had a recipe for creating mice and the recipe was place a dirty shirt or some rags in an open pot or barrel containing a few grains of wheat or some wheat bran.

In 21 days, mice will appear. So That is so crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That is fantastic. That is what the, like, foundation of Darwin's was like. Things just show up where they're They show up. Yeah, and like, they kind of do if you just observe it. Was that called spontaneous? Generation. Generation. So Bacon what was his name?

Francis Bacon. Francis Bacon[00:25:00] very famous guy. Loved the Lord. Like, he was a Christian. He was a big name in science. But his, I We get refrigeration. Because he would take chicken, raw chicken. He would take a chicken, he would kill it. And he would set it outside and be like, Oh my gosh, cold temperatures seem to stop decay from happening.

Unfortunately, the poor guy didn't even consider that he was also a live person. Anyway, he died from pneumonia, from experimenting. But like, but it's, the reason I say that is These ideas, right, we listen to a recipe for a mouse, we listen to a recipe for maggots, and we're like, that's ridiculous. How dare they?

And we look at Darwin and we're like, how could he possibly? But we're doing that today. Like we're looking, like you've got origin of life people on both sides of the aisle. One saying like there is a, there is a, a creator mechanism and another side saying no there's not, it's random. And we can, they are both looking at each other as if one is [00:26:00] writing a recipe for mice.

And like we might figure out how life has worked and Jake and I were talking about this yesterday. James. is like, I hope we figure it out. Maybe we will. And when we do what we think now is going to be like these recipes for mice. And so humility is huge. And that's where this split down the aisle is, is you've got so many people thinking that they're so beyond Darwin.

And he was just trying to figure out stuff that we are missing a lot. Like we miss bringing people together over donuts because like, no, people want to assume. That they have it figured out, and humility equals, like, unknown. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like, I think that's a good warning for us who are skeptical of the current, like, prebiotic scoop, soup and stuff.

And it's easy to be like, oh, that's seems ridiculous. And I mean, it does like, like there's no good explanations. I think that's the part that I'm most critical about [00:27:00] in it is like, okay, fine. That's how you are saying that this happened. But like, I need more specifics. Like how did these proteins form? And like, those are things they can't answer.

So they can't go into the specifics, but be honest about that. Don't present it as this like explanation when it's really just this broad, like they could have happened this way. Like, like, be honest. I think that's the, that's the thing that I'm most critical about in it isn't necessarily like, Oh, these original life resource people are wasting their time because God created everything like that's too simplistic.

Like we can understand God's given us the ability to understand things that he has made, you know, and life is still a mystery to us. But maybe one day it won't, but I am confident in my, Assumptions that when we do figure it out, it'll give God glory. If and when we figure it out, it'll give God glory.

But you know, I understand that that's my bias. And I, [00:28:00] I think that you know, people who are trying to approach it from a materialistic worldview aren't necessarily like the enemy. They're just, you know, I think they're missing something significant, which is the agency. Like, you know, I, I think there's clearly an agent behind these things and like the complexity speaks to that.

And if you just throw that out, like that's going to stunt your science. So like, that's my challenge to them is like, okay, work through that, you know, like, don't just dismiss this. That could be a legitimate thing. Like just from a scientific perspective, we are agents who make things like donuts and coffee.

And like, so there it is. There's your like proof, like it happens. So just like we have donuts and coffee. Cause we are agents who made them. Donuts don't just appear through natural processes. So that's evidence of an agent. Now life doesn't seem [00:29:00] to just appear. Out of natural processes. You can try it, they're trying to explain it that way, but if you're trying to explain how a donut came into existence, but you're ruling out agency, well you're going to be stunted in your science.

So, like, just looking at it from an objective position as possible and understanding your fundamental worldview and how that affects how you look thing, look at things. Are they currently attempting to create life in California? And where are they at? Lots of universities all over the world. Like you were saying, there's, there's so many big gaps in their explanations and they don't even know Currently how big the gaps are, how, how would they even start, I guess?

That's a good question. Yeah. It is such a significant problem that they basically are trying to simplify the problem. [00:30:00] Right? So it's like, okay, how can we get amino acids from inert chemicals? Right? So like, let's think about the conditions of early earth. what chemicals were there, how could those turn into the amino acids, which is the first building blocks, just the letters in a way that would be relevant, right?

So that's like, that's so I'm alluding to an experiment that was done it's a key experiment. It was done in like 1953. And it's the, it's the Miller Urey It's probably like the biggest breakthrough in origin of life that's ever happened. But it has significant If you went to public school, you learned about it.

You might not remember. And you probably heard about it. You probably heard about it. Basically, they took they took like a cylinder They took methane, ammonia, water vapor, and [00:31:00] hydrogen. And then they exposed it to an electrical spark. And basically. Yes, that's literally what they did. Yes. That is pretty much it.

Funny analogy. But that's pretty much it. And they were able to form some of the Amino acids that life uses from that experiment, um, which was like a big breakthrough. It's like, okay, we can take these inert materials and then we get the letters needed for life. Some of the letters needed for life. If the internet had existed, they would have said, we did it.

We created the building blocks of life in a lab. But thank goodness it was not. Well, and that's the key. Like we, we can create the amino acids in a lab today. The problem is how do you do it in a way that's. Relevant to life on earth in a chaotic environment such as a puddle, right? Like the way we create [00:32:00] amino acids in the lab, and I don't know all the exacts of this process And maybe we can't make all of them.

I don't know. I'm not really sure but I know we can do some the the That isn't necessarily extremely hard, but it takes a very like you're talking like instructions like you know multiple pages of instructions and it's like okay have a sterilized beaker with these pure ingredients and then mix them in there and then you'll get like from that reaction you'll get like 1 percent of that reactions after it's happened, 1 percent of it will be your amino acids.

And that's how, and then it's like, how, they don't last. Yeah, yeah, because then, yeah, they start breaking down. Like, you have it, you're like, whoa, we got it, and then they break down. Yeah. So how do you, so anyway, sorry. So how do you do that in nature without all of the lab? Oh my. It's crazy. And, and there's even another problem to it because I don't know if you guys remember or recall all [00:33:00] amino acids can be left or right handed.

So, like, think of a molecule structure, right? Like, it can form a left hand or a right hand. They're the same hands, but they're, they're, they're reflected, right? All life on earth is left handed. All the amino acids. That we use are left handed. Like the sugars that grow on a sugar cane. Left handed sugars.

That makes life compatible. Like, cause they're all handed the same. All the amino ions. Like if, if there was a sugar cane that made sugar that was right handed, we would not be able to digest it, like it would not be compatible with us. So when these experiments are done, you get about a 50 50 mix of right and left handed.

So somehow you have to then separate the left hand ones to then do the chemistry of that. So you're taking, okay, 1 percent of that reaction is viable amino acids. Now cut that in half again. Now you just have the [00:34:00] left hand ones, and now you can start building proteins from those. But you also had to have multiple chain reactions because you need multiple letters.

You need like multiple of those. So it, it, it, it's a very complex. thing that we don't really understand how that happened. We don't help. We don't understand how it happened in a chaotic environment, because we understand like this plus this equals this no problem, but the breakdown is when they're like, here's a bowl with everything you need, just step back and hope for the best, and then you get everything we have on earth and that's where the breakdown happens.

Yeah. Yeah. I was just saying. Yeah. And how do you go, how do you not have mutations? How do you not have instant death? How do you not have, because remember, they say like numbers, right? Or the letters. So we're just talking about the letters of the album, just getting the letters of the alphabet from there.

You have to form words, which is really the hardest part. Right. Because [00:35:00] like you, you know, the alphabet soup analogy, like you need to get the right information in the right order because so how proteins work, right. Proteins are the key pieces. And you can think of them as three dimensional puzzle pieces that have functions and like the reason, like.

I don't know if you've heard the term protein folding, but like, so you, the, you get these amino acids in the right order, that creates a new molecule that then folds in a certain way to create a three dimensional piece of the puzzle, that then that piece has a specific role to play in the, in the, in the object.

So like, you think about this chair, you would have a protein that would fold in a way that like, Made a chair seat out of the shape that's oversimplified, but like, that's kind of what we're talking about is like, there's a huge area of research going on right now with AI specifically [00:36:00] on figuring out, okay, let's start building our own proteins by running a bunch of simulations on saying, if we put the amino acids in this order, does it fold to make a shape that's useful for some kind of effort?

So like AI is running through all of those. potential chances and saying, okay, if we could just have a protein that did this and blocked this receptor for this thing, we could cure this disease. And, like, it's a huge area that's exploding in, in bio in, like, bioengineering. And, like, we'll probably see the fruits of that soon if not currently.

So, like. These proteins are complicated structures that then, like, they're, they're complicated structures that form parts for even more complicated things. Which then have a structure that walks alongside of it and unfolds it to copy it. So like, like a ribosome, you might have heard that word.

That's a multi part, protein machine. And what it [00:37:00] does is it goes up and down the DNA and reads the genetic instructions. To assemble the proteins that it's supposed to assemble. Like, it's literally this like Thing that moves along the strand of DNA and reads the information. It's the walking one, isn't it?

Yeah. Like walks. Yeah. Along the no. That's a different one. Oh, my bad. That's a different one. But that, that one is for cells have to transport things into the cell.

Like you have to move this thing from here to over here. And there's a, there's a protein that like walks the strands of the, like basically the bones of the cell.

It walks those and moves things around in your cell. It's, it's incredible. Like these Insane. They're tiny machines.

Like think about the most mach like complicated machine that we have made as human beings. It pales in comparison to just one machine in the cell at a nano scale. It's, it's phenomenal.

Like our cells are way more complicated than [00:38:00] a fighter jet and like the machines that go into it, I mean, it's a different kind of thing, but you get the idea.

And like we have like the ATP synthase is another one of the machines that so ATP is the primary energy chemical that cells use for driving metabolism and all of that.

And the synthase is what makes the ATP for the cell that they, basically it makes the food for the cell to, to run. And it's another super complex molecule that even, like, it, It has an axle and a rod that spins, like, like an engineering axle that you would see in a car, but it's in a nanoscale, and it, and it, and it turns, and like, rotary motors, like, turn, it's, it's, it's crazy, you can, you can Google and find these simulations of these machines in action, and they're mind blowing, I don't know if you saw the video that I put in the post, but there's a few clips of those workings in that video.

The flagellum [00:39:00] tail is another example because it has a rotary it's basically a rotary motor. It's like it's a boat motor basically in a cell It's it's incredible it's incredible and talking about like something that gives God glory like if you look at that and it's like Oh, we got a Microsoft scope good enough to see the inner workings of the cell and we're seeing engineering And information and things that like, we cannot replicate today.

Like we're just starting to be able to make nano machines. That's actually what Dr. Tours you know, a lot of his research is on is like, he makes little, like cars basically out of molecules. And like, these are infinitely more complex than that, which is why he's so vocal on, like, we don't know what we're doing when it comes to original life.

Getting back to a question that you answered, and I think this really frames it well actually before I get there, the URI, [00:40:00] the Miller URI experiment so I talked about the handedness. That's a problem with it. So, okay, great. We got that meat. We got a few of the amino acids. It's a great starting point.

Presumably there could be other processes to get the other ones and let's say that, you know, we figured out how they split the handedness. The next problem with the Miller Urey is like, based on what we know now it's unlikely that the atmosphere would have been composed the way that they put it in the, in the experiment.

Their experiment had no free oxygen. So free oxygen would be just like oxygen that's not bonded with anything, right? So, free oxygen is very it causes oxidation really quickly which breaks things down extremely effectively. So any free oxygen would, would decimate those amino acids. It would oxidize them immediately.

And so, in like, early Earth is likely to have had free [00:41:00] oxygen in it. So like, That's another problem. So you got the hand is this problem all these things and we're just in still like we're just talking about the basic letters and we still we got to form books like that's the goal of life is to form books because that would be a cell. , and. So they,

one of, okay, so let's, let's talk back on like, okay, counter argument, cells scientists will say that most likely through naturalistic explanations, the first cells were very simple, which makes sense. Okay. We're not trying to build the Ferrari. We want to build a tricycle. And then from the tricycle, we'll get to a Ferrari.

That's basically their argument. And I mean, that's, that's a good argument. Like, okay, let's, let's put the goalposts down from there. And[00:42:00] there are things that a cell needs to, to do that. So like at minimal, a basic cell, and they, a lot of times this is called a proto cell. You would need you need me, we need protein.

Protein production, right? You would need some ribosome of some kind to say, okay, we need to make proteins in order to continue and to reproduce. You would need that transportation inside the cell to get things where they need to go. You would need energy production, so synthesizing ATP. You would need a way of disposing waste from the cell because if you don't have that, Then, you know, you're going to poison the cell immediately.

yoU need a function, a way of replicating. And then you would need some kind of protection from the outside, right? Huh. So, like, at a minimum, a protocell needs those things.

Are we close? to [00:43:00] doing that. No, like we have things that can kind of make, honestly, we can kind of make a protoplasm in the sense of Darwin's all like a gooey container with a shell around it. But it has none of those features that I just talked about. Cause like the cell wall seems like a simple aspect of a cell, right?

Like, okay, I have a wall that protects it from the outside. The problem is. It can't be done, right? Like that cell wall has to know and have mechanisms to say, I want to bring in these things and expel these things. So it has to have, it's a gatekeeper. And if you don't have that gatekeeper, then you have that homogeneous situation where that cell is just going to become like it's outside.

And then it's like it dies. It needs to keep separation from the outside, but bring in nutrients that it needs and then expel the, the waste [00:44:00] products with no information given on what is poison and what it's not. It just should know. So it's like a mechanically functioning system that does that. Like the cells don't have a brain that we do say, I don't eat rocks.

I eat cheeseburgers. sO the, the, it has to be a mechanism that does that. And there, then the cells, cells, all every cell has to have that. So this like, jelly blob that we can do with I can't remember how it all comes together but it's just like a, it's just a barrier, it's just a wall, and a wall is not good enough, you have to have a gate, you have to have multiple gates, and you have to have these processes.

So here's the real, I think, litmus test for life. We can't, okay, if I, if, if I was to give the leading origin of life scientist a living bacteria and I took a needle [00:45:00] and I poked a hole in it, killing it, that leading life Or origin researcher could not recreate that cell. Couldn't get it back together.

Couldn't get it back together. Like, You have everything you need. That separation of life and death is a huge barrier. Right. Like, and we're talking about having everything right there in almost the perfect amounts. In the perfect situation, all you've done is you've ruptured the cell wall. And boom, it's done.

And we can't fix that. Like, that's a pretty basic thing. So think about, okay, if we can't do that, then surely we are very, very, very far away from synthesizing a cell. But that doesn't stop.

things like, okay, in 2010 a scientist presented to the media that what they call is the first synthetic cell.

And it was a group of 25 scientists that worked for 15 years at the cost of [00:46:00] 40 million. To create a version of a bacterium with sections of man made DNA. So, there, you know, this is a huge scientific success, right? But, what did they really do? ThEy basically read the DNA of a living bacterium, and they stored that information in a computer.

Next they constructed a new, they constructed a new strand of DNA that contained the same information that they had put into that computer. So they basically, you know, they plagiarized that information, right? And you know, they, they Created their own DNA, and then they injected it in a real living cell.

It already existed. They didn't actually do anything. No, they just, they just Well, no, not really. I mean, it's still significant in the sense that they read DNA, stored [00:47:00] it digitally, recreated that DNA, and then inserted it into a living cell. That's pretty amazing. But if you say, if you start saying we created a First man made synthetic cell, no wonder people are misled on what we're actually capable of.

Like, be honest in what you've done is the main thing that I think, because like, it's not that it's not amazing and really cool that we did that. But like, why are you saying you did this when you really did this? It's like looking at, like, the, the statue of David. Right? Like, Da Vinci, right? Is that Da Vinci?

Right? Right? Yeah. Yes? Sounds right. One of those guys, right? Chiseled an amazing statue. One of the Ninja Turtles. Exactly. Yes, one of the Ninja Turtles. But like, you look at that and you say, that's incredible. That's absolutely outstanding. And what if he was like, yeah, and I created. Did everything from scratch.

Like there was nothing on this [00:48:00] pedestal, and I worked day and night to create, formed the marble, right? Like did the chemistry, formed the marble, poured it, built the block, all of that. But if you just, so it's, it's just, it's, it's simple and it's explanation of how people get deceived in that. They say, we've done this from scratch.

And you're like, well, but did you like you? Yeah. And that's, that's the sticking part. And that's, I think that's Where would you say. That that's where the, the tribalism kind of comes into play, of like, look at them, they're trying to deceive the public. And it's not necessarily that they're attempting to deceive, but saying, look what we did, but there is cash behind it, like, they lose their jobs, and their funding, if they say like, I mean, we did, but we didn't.

And, so there, of course there's deceit. Deceitfulness in it, but not in the sense of like, these scientists are trying to disprove religion all together. I would kind of say. Mostly not. Well, there's some. There's some. The sensational [00:49:00] media is a byproduct of them needing funding, right? Yes, for sure. And so you get that sensational synthetic cell headline, and now you have an investor who's like, yep, I'll contribute to that project.

That sounds great. I want synthetic life. Right. Well, you know. If you lean between the lines and you get a little bit more detailed, you say, okay, well, there's some caveats here. You know, and we've done something amazing, but not quite there. You know, it's, it's spin really. It's, it's PR spin to get funding, which is just the way the system is set up, unfortunately.

But I think These sorts of discussions lead to, like, philosophical and even theological questions, right? So, like, let's say scientists do create a cell in the lab. Like, what does that mean for us? Like, how do you interpret that? As a Christian, you know, like, I think [00:50:00] it's easy for Christians to To or I think it's easy to be like, they'll never do it, you know?

And, you know, I've been guilty of that. Like, it's so impossible. It seems like that they'll never do it, but like, you know, five years ago, I would have said the AI we have today was impossible or like decades away, but like, I mean, it exploded in a couple of years where it's like, Whoa, the AI can do what now?

So like there's, like, I think it would be foolish for us to say that scientists can't do that, and they're on a fool's errand. They might get to that point. But what does that mean? Hypothetically, if that happened. Are you asking the question for everyone? I'm asking the question. Non hypothetical, or non rhetorical.

What would that do to your faith, you mean? Just in general, like, how do you react to that? Like, how do you work through that with your faith, with your worldview? Does it shake it? Does it contribute to it? Like, how does that affect you?[00:51:00]

I think, I think it means to me, right, of my gut reaction, is that it means that humans are continuing to display their incredible capabilities. to be, um, incredibly worshipful to God, or incredibly wicked, with those kinds of advancements. I think that's how I would view it, is, I, it wouldn't shake my faith at all in the gospel, it would definitely push me to, Confirm that humans are ridiculously amazing in the sense that God has created them in, in his image, and they are capable of tremendous things that could glorify him and, and point people to him and also be incredibly damaging and full [00:52:00] of pride and full of ego and, um, could hurt a lot of people.

Yeah. That's how I would view it. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of similar to, like, think of nuclear weapons, nuclear energy, AI for helping tell them, like, create medicines that can save people's lives, and AI that will, you know, turn into the Terminator. Like, there's all, technology almost always has that paradigm, like, no matter what.

The printing press, it was used to print the first Bible, but then used to Lead to the internet. Lead to the internet. I was gonna go, like, propaganda in World War II, but yeah. Or dynamite. Yeah, yeah, mining, like, every technology has those, those, that paradigm to it. Because left to human capability, we always get a decision.

What are we going to do with it? Yeah. And usually it's all of the above. It kind of reminds me of the Tower of Babel, you know? Yes. We're constantly trying to reach, reach heaven. Yeah, that's right. [00:53:00] Trying to match the amazing power of God in one way or another. Yeah. Or like, go without Him. Or, yeah. Go without Him.

Like, look how great we are. Mm hmm. And I think that's kind of a minor perspective. I think that we don't even realize True. Yeah. That is what we're striving to achieve, but ultimately, it is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, or it is the heart motivation of the human, but it's best not whispered or, or said by the mouth, because that would be exposing the heart, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, it kind of highlights the call for Christians to do all things to honor God, right? So, like, in our technology. The things we discover, we need to honor God in it. And that's the call that we have. It's not so much like don't advance, you know, it's, it's use it for good. Cause you have a choice.

I've just, [00:54:00] this has come up multiple times in my brain the past few weeks, but like it almost always goes back to the garden and Adam and Eve in this very simplistic question of are you going to obey or are you going to disobey? Each technology we get, we have that new question. Are we going to use it for his glory, or are we going to use it for destruction and pride?

Like, it's all, like, the garden is Always being played out. Like, we have all these variations of the same thing. It's simplified in the garden as this choice to eat a forbidden fruit, but that choice now has many different, many different flavors, right? And it's just an extension of that. that and in every one of those choices, we, we are called to honor God in them.

And that's the, that's the challenge that we have today. But I think it would be amazing to be fair. Like you asked the question, like, what would happen? What would [00:55:00] happen? I like, I think today. It would be incredible for humanity to be like, look what we've done, because at least to me it would be a minor glimpse into what God did, right?

Like, we like to think, like, what was it like when it was just God, and there was nothing, and there was chaos, or, you know, like when he created all things, when it was just him. And to get a momentary glimpse into that, if we did someday, is, that's wild. Like, I would love, there's so many times you and I have had conversations like, what would that have been like?

Like, God speaking things into existence, or this or that, like, what would you think to have been there to seen things replicated in a way that God did in the beginning, or does on a daily basis in everybody's body so that we don't die I think it would be amazing, but it all forever. That's just the, the human nature that we have been [00:56:00] gifted is we'll, we'll take that and take advantage of it.

Like I, you know, it just, it happens. I hope it doesn't, but if it did, I think it would be incredible. I think it'd be super cool for someone to come forward and be like nothing, something and be like, God literally did that for everybody, like for everybody and continues to do it and maintain it and create.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So yeah, I think it would be amazing. But again, that's today. I don't know what tomorrow brings. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's so many things that would be worth working through in that case, because okay. So if, well, I think it, it, a huge factor for me is how it happened. Like, how did we create a synthetic cell?

Is it in a. Process that could be deemed naturalistic. And that would be a harder thing for me to work through. I don't think it would shake my fundamental faith in Jesus Christ. Cause I mean, I [00:57:00] think that transcends that all. And I'm like, okay, God, I trust God that he did that somehow in a way that is relevant cause the Bible is not a science book.

So I would take that into scope and I'd be like, okay, that. Raises some interesting questions about like evolution and like how we came to be. It doesn't necessarily mean the Bible is wrong or throws everything out. It's just, okay, we have to look like it reminds me of like the early church when.

We learned that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. We had to adjust how we looked at it and like we had paint so like a little bit of a history like It was assumed that earth was the center of the universe because god created it and of course It is like we're here and we're looking out and god's above we're below.

And like that was the paradigm and then it was like We started looking we got telescopes we started [00:58:00] looking out and we We learned that that's not the case, the sun, we circle around the sun and the sun circles around the Milky Way and like we're in this, you know, random, but very good spot in the Milky Way.

And like we had to frame our theology differently. Like we had to say, okay, we were mistaken in thinking that it was important for us to be the center of the universe or like. Like, we had tied in our observations into our theology the wrong way. aNd that takes a shift. And so, like, I think that's what the role of Christians needs to be, is saying, okay, Science is saying, like, like, if we created a cell in the lab, In a naturalistic, relevant way, which I'm highly skeptical of.

We would have to just say, okay, [00:59:00] what does that mean? And I think we'd have to work through that systematically. I honestly don't think we will. I think it'll be more likely that it's like, okay, we created a cell. If we can get there in a very Advanced laboratory and it cost billions of dollars like that's probably more likely what would happen and we're probably talking like I don't know how long but far away in the future and if that's the case it's like oh it took us billions of dollars in an advanced laboratory and tons of research and all of this to Matt To kind of do what God did on a huge, greater scale.

Like, that just gives him glory. Like, extraordinary glory. And like, even if it was, okay, even if it was the first approach, where it was more of a naturalistic, relevant way, okay, well, we have the universe that's fine tuned to make that happen. So it really, [01:00:00] ultimately, you just push the problem back. It's like, okay, we got life figured out.

Okay, what about reality itself? The universe? Like, where did that come from? You know, and it's like, Okay, so you solved one problem, and now you just have a great, bigger problem. And God still is the best explanation for that. Like, how do we fine tune things to make this Set things up just right so that life could do this incredible thing.

You and I had this conversation yesterday, though, because we were like, why is this so hard? Because you were listening to Tor and Lee, and they're, like, taking in their, their some sort of biases and personalities and all of that. And I think what was interesting, what you brought up, and I've been thinking about it since yesterday, just like, oh, it's so true, and with this, It, it's good for us as followers of the Lord and believers in the Sovereign Lord not to just create more [01:01:00] problems, right?

Like you're like, okay, sure, you figure that out and this is not an op on you, but you, you extrapolate that and you kind of have what we have today and the conversation you watched yesterday where you have this tribal mindset of like science over here, religion over here. But really, they've melded together, you just don't see it as often, or we're working our way through it.

But when Christians, or people of religion of any kind, look at, um, say that this happens, and we say, you know, cool, you did that, but what about the fine tuning of the universe, and stuff like that, instead of just saying, good job, what about? Like, being involved in it, and being like, amazing. How do we take that different as opposed to what I think we habitually fall into, which is like, shut that down and look over here, shut that down and look over here instead of incorporating ourselves into it and be like, that's pretty stinking amazing.

Let's look further into that as like details and like the universe and the human consciousness. How does [01:02:00] that apply? Does it, if it doesn't, have you considered the thing that has created it all that? Yeah, I mean that, that speaks to the criticism of. a lot of this perspective, and it's usually summarized with the phrase, God of the gaps.

Right? So it's like, okay, and like, God of the gaps is not a good argument, because it's not productive, right? It's just saying, we don't understand that, so it must be God, the end. Like, and it's like, Like with lightning, when we didn't understand lightning, it was like, God is angry, Thor's throwing his hammer at the end, and we're like, Actually, we figured it out.

But then we just moved that goalpost, like, Well, we don't know how life's so God, like, not that that's wrong, but that's the concept of it. We don't know why cheese stinks. And let's be God, don't ask questions. And I think the better position to take, in my opinion, is like, how can we [01:03:00] contribute our bias towards advancing science?

So like, how does thinking that there is an intelligent creator designing all of this change how we approach science and the experiments we do in these areas? So it's like, okay, instead of trying to spend all this effort trying to make. Prebiotic, or trying to make life in a way that would have been on Earth a long time ago.

Let's just try to make the life in general, and like, that would be like, more akin to a designer. Like, let's take the restrictions out and, and like, just see what we can accomplish. You know, that's one possible, there's probably a million other contributing ways that we can approach this differently. Then someone who has a different bias.

And it's like, so instead of just saying. Your science is dumb, and it'll never get anywhere. Let's say, how can we [01:04:00] advance this, but with our perspective of intelligent agency? Like, we're not trying to shut down science. Very much the opposite. Like, and it goes back to the foundations of science itself.

Like, the fundamental motivation for science was started by trying to understand who God is and what he's created. And it's like, that is the motive of Christianity. And like, that can lead places that it might, an atheist might not go down. So like, what, how, instead of shutting it down, let's contribute to it.

And move things forward with positive things instead of just you know, dismissing things. As much as you're able, live peaceably among all men. Ooh, there you go. Oh, dang it. That's a good verse. Good verse. So.

So I have so many questions and things, but I'll just go to one, cause I think it's it's super applicable right now.

So we're getting ready to enter into the God Gap season, [01:05:00] you know, it's Christmas, and so I've got so many, just, I mean, just listening and taking notes, I'm like, okay, alright, I've got so many questions, cause this is God Gap season, where we go, God became, like, existent. in Mary's tummy. And that happened through supernatural, miraculous things.

Have fun opening your presents, you know, and I think I have so many, I mean like, just considering the, the complexity of a cell and everything we've talked about, I'm like, okay, so now I'm picturing Mary And I'm picturing these supernatural cells that are infused upon Mary's womb by the [01:06:00] Holy Spirit. And how do we scientifically explain the incarnation?

Because this is a massive thing. I just got done reading a book on Christmas, and it's just like, it's just billions of people are going to be celebrating something they don't even understand, and I've been thinking through this, this concept of incarnation, but we'll sing hymns about it, it's in every shopping center, it's in every IV, it's the songs that are just like totally taken for granted and, so, talk to me about, or explain, Explain the incarnation?

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. No problem. I'm actually asking that, like, what, in a cellular explanation, what is the current best explanation from a scientific perspective of the incarnation? It didn't happen, because religion's not real. If you're an atheist, if you're an atheist, if you're an atheist, [01:07:00] she got pregnant, and they built a story around it.

It's all made up. Right. Like, I refuse to bow down to authority. The end. Yep. Got it. perspective. Yes. How can you work through that? How are we thinking through this? Sorry. And I'm sorry if that's a derailing. No, no. It's, I mean, it's a, it's an interesting question. Super apical. It's a, it's a very interesting question and one that like, you know, I'll come back to in a minute because I want to go a little bit deeper and it's something I've been thinking about like, what does supernaturally even mean?

And this is like. We've been talking about this for two days. I think I'm going to write an article on it and post it on the blog because I have a lot of thoughts on it. But like, what is supernatural other than saying that we don't understand how it worked? Yeah. Right? Like, that's kind of the definition of supernatural.

And, and to be critical of the scientific world right now, like, they hold towards the things that are just as supernatural, like a [01:08:00] multiverse theory, right? Like that's just as supernatural as the incarnation of Mary, right? Like it's, you can't explain it with science today. so Like. In some ways, our definition of supernatural gets smaller, like, because, like, you know, lightning could have been seen as supernatural, because we couldn't explain it, like, it's this mysterious force that shoots lightning bolts down and starts fires but now we have an explanation for how that functions so, like, just the question of what is supernatural, I think, is interesting and I would, I think that's it.

Honestly, shift the explanation to like more miracle or basically God intervening, intervening in natural, normal processes, right? So normally children get born through intimacy and through the normal ways, and I'll just leave it at that. I understand. Talk to your parents. When mommy's the next one. No, [01:09:00] but like two, you have to have two separate genetic egg and sperm, two different separate genetic carriers.

of, of the ability to, and those two genetic carriers, in a sense, must be compatible with one another because that doesn't always happen. Yeah. So, anyway, like, that is very important. Yeah, so like, you know, I think we can speculate on that question and say, well Mary obviously had eggs so she had half of the genetic material needed.

And I would say that. It's likely that that actually was used because the Bible very much talks about the lineage of Jesus on Mary's side. So like that's, that's genetic information if you want to talk about it scientifically. So Mary's half was contributed and then you would have this. Divine half, that came about, you know, so that could have been just information[01:10:00] because that's all DNA really is, is information, and so it just, you know, formed the other half of the genome.

Whatever that meant, when the Holy Spirit, like, settled upon her, like, you have, The idea of, like, if God is the designer, right, I'm saying if from the opposite end, right, of somebody trying to understand it, and it's like, if you think Supernatural as, I don't, okay, if anybody gets a chance, it's a super boring book, unless you ask Jade, watch, read Flatland, read the book, Flatland.

It's interesting. Because if you consider, like two, like, if you have a 2D thing, right? A 2D piece of paper. I'm totally gonna butcher it because I put it down, so it's so boring. You're mentioning Flatland when we're over time. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But, but, it helps me, like, it helps me think through that question of, like, how could this even happen?

Is if you have a 2D thing, and a 3D thing walks upon, or, like, interacts with it. How do [01:11:00] you conceptualize that? You can't because you have a 2D mind that knows 2D world and now you have a 3D thing. Okay, so Forget religion in a sense and just say you believe in a multiverse or out, you know, other dimensions What would happen if a fifth, sixth, seventh dimensional individual being whatever you want to call it interacts with our 3D world?

That would be very difficult for us to conceptualize, observe. We would probably see its interaction and not understand how that We'd call it supernatural. So if we, if we, I know for me, sometimes I can look at the Holy Spirit as like wind or just like how do you conceptualize that? But if it's simply a thing, a person, an entity, an informant an information carrier of some kind that settled upon Mary on her 3D body in a 4D, 5D sense and just imposed upon her the information she needed for Christ's conception in a way that our bodies.

must have [01:12:00] through egg and sperm joining within a woman's body, like you could conceptually understand how that information was given to create another human being. And what's interesting about that is, like, the idea of multi dimensions is scientific. Yep. Right? Like, there are mathematical methods and mathematical frameworks for understanding math at a multidimensional level.

Like, math is all the way we can do it, but like, it's, it, like, it's part of string theory. Like, string theory posits, like, something like 11 dimensional dimensions. And that's all through math. But, like, my, my thought is, like, We cannot conceive of those higher dimensions. So, really, there's no way of saying that they're not the spiritual realm.

Like, you're just saying it in different words. [01:13:00] And it's like, one is supernatural because we're saying Jesus like God and Jesus and church history and like people are like, that's ridiculous. And then you have mathematicians and theoretical physicists talking about the same things using different words and different frameworks and it's like is Is one really more supernatural than the other insert humility where you can be like, okay, we're talking about the same thing We're calling it what makes our brains comfortable In the moment and the implications are lifelong depending on what you subscribe Yeah.

Ascribed to. I don't know. Yeah. Does that answer your question? It, it does. It's super, it's super helpful because I've, I've thought it, okay, so I wrote, I wrote down a note of a definition as you guys were talking. So God intervening in the natural process with God providing, and we say the Holy Spirit providing the genome or the genetic material to match, and I [01:14:00] added the word germinate, match, and germinate, Mary's A.

Yeah. In that, in that sense. So, and it seems like, wow, that's such a Christian, yeah, like you said, crazy explanation. But if, if you're into, you know, if you're into the supernatural realm or the spirit realm, and you understand that God literally created something out of nothing, a creation, then, then, then.

impregnating Mary with the Son of God, which is incredible to think about, is not hard nor beyond God's power and his previous experience to demonstrate his holiness, his ability to do that. Yeah, and like, you can explain a lot of it with scientific framing, and like, whether that's how God did it or not, we can't say, but like, it's plausible.

Like, she mentioned the multi dimensional aspect. And if you think about the qualities a [01:15:00] four dimensional plus being would have, one of those would be omniscience. Like, because you could literally see inside of someone. Like, because like you think, us, three dimensional, looking at this piece of paper, and you have a circle, like you can see inside that circle.

Because you're above it, looking down on it. If you're a circle, you have no concept of up or down, you just see lines. And like, the idea of something, see, inside of that is infallible. So like, like, there are mechanisms that make sense scientifically. I mean, I, and like, I would never say like, you know, double down on those things.

But it's like, you can explain it. It's incredible how intuitive the Bible is about, like, you're talking about ancient people. Ancient people groups that are saying definitely God. And they don't. In the New Testament, in the first century, they don't back off of [01:16:00] that. And then you go back into the Old Testament, and you find even more evidence of that, with Elijah telling his servant, God, would you please open his eyes so he can see the angel armies that surround the city?

And all of a sudden, God's like, yep, there you go. And Like, these are ancient people groups, like standing on this multidimensional worldview and not backing off of it and saying, no, this is, this is how it happened. This is exactly how it happened. I find that fascinating. Yeah. I find it very faith building.

Science has almost accidentally re found out that, and it's just looking at it in a completely different way, and it's like, if you add those things together, you get, you get something that. Harmonizes really well, right? Yeah Super helpful All right. I'll I'll close this up in prayer. This has been fun Father just thank you, for today and being able to talk through all this stuff.

It [01:17:00] your glory is obvious and your work and fingerprints are everywhere. And I'm so grateful that as we learn more about what you've created it just expands what we can do and the tools we have. And I just pray that we would use those for your glory, Father, and use those to benefit humanity and and just give you glory at the day, Father.

I pray these things in your name. Amen. That's a lot to digest. Great, yeah. I don't get centuried